The finding of a future wife

[LovelyLadyLux]

Was talking today to one of my Saudi grad students who is returning home for a month long visit to his family. Seems the family has located a potential future wife prospect for him. He is flying from here to Bahrain and then driving the rest of the trip to a complete travel time total of 24+ hours.

Couldn't bring myself to ask him how old his future wife might be. He has been very open his own mom was married to his father at age of 14 (she is 48 now) and has had 10 children over the years. He sees absolutely nothing wrong with a woman starting married life that young. His 4 sisters are all married and he has 12 nieces and nephews. He revels in his big family and has confided that whatever wife he has better be prepared to have a minimum of 6 children. Am not sure if having a specified number of children can be part of the marriage contract or not however part of his reason for going home is to start figuring out with his brothers his own contribution to the future wife and her family which he estimates will be about the equivalent of $50,000 plus gifts of gold.

He was a bit down that it was going to take him a few more years to finish school and work to acquire sufficient $$ but seemed happy that there was an identified prospect of a future wife - not that he'd meet or get to know her.

Not too sure how this compares to current practice and thinking in Egypt.

[Dusak]

Very similar over here but on average from what I can gather not that price range. The average wedding according to my friend costs in the region of 75,000Le for the grooms side of things. She had a wedding outside her home this week. The bride and groom only met for the first time at the ceremony, she from Alexandria. Her age was 21 but it is still common to wed at 16. Her own brother wed at the beginning of the year when she had just finished school at the age of sixteen and ten months. Already well on the way of having the first child without a clue about anything. His marriage cost around the figure I quoted but he already owned an apartment, just needed finishing off decor wise and the furniture.

[newcastle]

I'd say you friend was about right D. Obviously there's a huge range. I witnessed a wedding reception for a Cairo couple in Sahl Hasheesh. 600 guests...most down from cairo..took over the Oberoi for a night and the piazza at Sahl. God knows what it must have cost..$100,000 plus for sure.

My own "Egyptian son's" wedding a couple of years back was more modest...around 50,000LE!

He was 28, she 19. They now have a 15 month old son. They barely knew each other before the nuptuals and the first year or so has had its "problems".....she's a feisty girl! Still....that's the way they do it. Not surprising so many end in divorce which is relatively easy....but the general idea is for the men to stay out of the way as far as possible and stick to it. You've probably noticed

[newcastle]

I'd say your friend was about right D. Obviously there's a huge range. I witnessed a wedding reception for a Cairo couple in Sahl Hasheesh. 600 guests...most down from Cairo..took over the Oberoi for a night and the piazza at Sahl. God knows what it must have cost..$100,000 plus for sure.

My own "Egyptian son's" wedding a couple of years back was more modest...around 50,000LE!

He was 28, she 19. They now have a 15 month old son. They barely knew each other before the nuptuals and the first year or so has had its "problems".....she's a feisty girl! Still....that's the way they do it. Not surprising so many end in divorce which is relatively easy....but the general idea is for the men to stay out of the way as far as possible (hence the overflowing coffee shops) and stick to it. You've probably noticed

[carrie]

Relatively easy for the man not so for the woman if he doesn't agree.

[LovelyLadyLux]

What was remarkable (to me) about my conversation was that my student showed no interest IN the wife per se. He was very interested in talking about his wanting a minimum of 6 kids basing that on that his mom having 10 kids. Since she was married at 14 and has apparently told him that that is the BEST age I'm sure I'd be quite surprised/shocked if I knew the age of the future potential wife right now as he is adding by my figuring a couple years to finish studies and work prior to the actual marriage. He does operate in the realm of a large family who all chip in to help him so am sure they'll all be involved with his launch when it happens and I'm sure this planning stage will last several years as the contract part of who gives what, who does what for what price will develop. He also apparently has to give $$ to the wife for her to prepare and buy household items.

One of my own curiosities is whether the number of children desired and expected is put in the marriage contract. He talks at length about wanting 6 kids minimum and he is quite content to know that his sisters, mom, aunties are all there to help raise them. AND interestingly - he has not once mentioned that HE and The Wife will be raising his kids. He is rather giving them (not physically) to his mom as he has them because having Grandkids makes her happy and he is determined to make his mom happy. He is the first to leave the family and travel to another country and, as per him, his mom is crying for him every night and worries non-stop that he is eating etc and will be ok and I'm personally sure she is wailing and crying and super worried about her son while he is at school so much so that this sudden marriage is a ruse to get him back home for a visit to assure herself he is A-ok.

Hard to say how the $50,000 relates. Seems lots to me but it might be a pittance. He has referenced that the giving of gold there isn't too difficult as, apparently as per him, gold is cheap there. Cheaper than in the rest of the world.

He just flew off yesterday and won't return 'til Sept for classes so won't get any more tidbits 'til then.

[carrie]

Sometimes following the engagement, which is actually a form of marriage, the couple may have to wait 7 or 8 years before they actually live together, have to prepare the home buy all the household furniture the gold, I know one young man here who is engaged to a 16 year old girl but he is looking at 10 years before he has enough to set up home together. As for the number of kids how can you foresee he might be sterile or she.
You are discussing a Saudi however and I have no idea how things work there.

[LovelyLadyLux]

@ Carrie - the time frames, to me, sound about the same. A future intended has been identified and it seems preliminaries have to be discussed but there is definitely no urgency. The only urgency that I can see is that this particular 'mom' wants to get her son back home for a visit as all of the other matters could have been discussed online. He is happy to have a reason to go home and I'm sure his mom will welcome him like the returning hero!

And yea I'm discussing a Saudi but there are cultural, religious, social similarities. Am sure there are regional and country differences but lots of basic similarities.

As for having kids I thought the same thing. What if he or she can't produce? Sadly I think the immediate answer is that it would be HER fault and my guess would be she'd be returned home if she wasn't able to give him children. And what if after 3 or 4 (very healthy numbers IMO) that was it? I'm sure, in this case, the answer would be to introduce other wives which then brings me 'round to the whole issue of emotional commitment between couples. Just curious if the number of children issue would be written into a marriage contract which would/could give him the leverage to add additional wives if wife #1 wasn't able to live up to her end of the contract?

[newcastle]

Is ....could....should...the number of offspring required be written into the marriage contracts.

I raised your query with my Egyptian "son".

I won't relay his exact response. Suffice it to say that he thought I'd either taken leave of my senses or was trying to wind him up in very poor taste.

I can't answer for the Saudis.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Could be just this specific student too. I really don't know what standard practice is or what standard covenants and caveats and why for and heretofor clauses go into a contract. For me personally I'd think that Allah would decree how many kids you have with the more kids kinda showing you're more blessed but I'm also darn certain (well kinda) that if the wife doesn't "produce" it would be considered her fault and she could find herself either replaced or find she has a new sister wife. This later part is just supposition by me however.

What was remarkably lacking was this particular fellows interest in the wife. He seemed happy it was a fait accompli that he was getting a wife but his focus wasn't really on her (at least he wasn't verbalizing about her but - who knows - he just might not have been sharing his thoughts with me

How different Saudis are from Egyptians? Probably about as different as the Welsh are from the English are from the Scottish are from the Canadians are from the average 'Merican Sah?

[Dusak]

And once these long term engagements come into affect, dare she not even look towards another male or go out unescorted. But he? He can do as he pleases, including having sex if so desired, but not with the intended as she just has to still be a 'girlie' on the night. And no, I'm not saying they are all like that, just 99.99 %.

[newcastle]

And once these long term engagements come into affect, dare she not even look towards another male or go out unescorted. But he? He can do as he pleases, including having sex if so desired, but not with the intended as she just has to still be a 'girlie' on the night. And no, I'm not saying they are all like that, just 99.99 %.

I doubt the percentage of male transgressors is anything like as high as that D. Except where there are willing female tourists, there's little opportunity. No decent girl would risk going that far and widows and divorcees would be similarly restrained unless they were sure the man was intending to marry them. Sure...there are the "horizontales" of Cairo & a few other places but from conversations I've had with Egyptian 20-something men, they keep their virginity....and a stressful matter it is too!

[newcastle]

And once these long term engagements come into affect, dare she not even look towards another male or go out unescorted. But he? He can do as he pleases, including having sex if so desired, but not with the intended as she just has to still be a 'girlie' on the night. And no, I'm not saying they are all like that, just 99.99 %.

I doubt the percentage of male transgressors is anything like as high as that D. Except where there are willing female tourists, there's little opportunity. No decent girl would risk going that far and widows and divorcees would be similarly restrained unless they were sure the man was intending to marry them. Sure...there are the "horizontales" of Cairo & a few other places but from conversations I've had with Egyptian 20-something men, they keep their virginity....and a stressful matter it is too!

[LovelyLadyLux]

I think if you were outside tourist areas that have a Gigalo culture you'd be seeing quite different male/female interactions. I think the introduction of our permissive culture has somewhat tainted the locals and particularly those young male locals who saw easy money and a pathway to a future fortune.

[Dusak]

I was discussing this topic with my friend this morning. She certainly opened my eyes this time in what she says is the latest foolhardy accepted practice by girls. They have been lead to believe that they can safely have sex as much as they want, then, when marriage looms at a later date and there is little hope that they would be allowed to marry the boy/man that they truly love and have engaged in sex with, they can have their hymen reconstructed with non being the wiser only her. I told her that this operation is possible but to be able to have it done in this country at an affordable cost, is, I think, wishful thinking on their part. Yet another example of the persuasive powers of the male and the stupidity of the love lorn female that thinks the word yes is a binding contract of love.

[Yildez]

Don't know about Egypt Dusak, but hymen repair is the most common cosmetic surgery carried out in Turkey, and probably some of the other Middle Eastern countries too.

[carrie]

I know that girls here sometimes offer to have anal sex with a boy, thus preserving their virginity. Strange old world.

[lotusflower]

And once these long term engagements come into affect, dare she not even look towards another male or go out unescorted. But he? He can do as he pleases, including having sex if so desired, but not with the intended as she just has to still be a 'girlie' on the night. And no, I'm not saying they are all like that, just 99.99 %.

I doubt the percentage of male transgressors is anything like as high as that D. Except where there are willing female tourists, there's little opportunity. No decent girl would risk going that far and widows and divorcees would be similarly restrained unless they were sure the man was intending to marry them. Sure...there are the "horizontales" of Cairo & a few other places but from conversations I've had with Egyptian 20-something men, they keep their virginity....and a stressful matter it is too!

A lot of widows and divorcees are the ones who are having secret love affairs with some Egyptian married men in Luxor..and that is a fact...

[lotusflower]

and married women whose husbands are working in Kuwait, Saudi etc., having secret affairs with single and married men in Luxor and that also is a fact..

[LovelyLadyLux]

I think anal sex it relatively common amongst those who need to preserve their dignity however (depending) it is relatively easy to injure bowel and rectal tissue.

I think the biggest obstacle many young women face is getting out of the house alone for 'free time' in the first place. Even after they're out of the family home they can't just go wandering about anywhere for any amount of time as those same brothers who are probably out there having a go at their girlfriends are pretty ardent about ensuring their sisters remain pure and chaste.