Luxor4u

I have just watched a quite disturbing programme (Aljazeera World on AJE) about Egyptians who have no ID. Possibly 10% of the population (no-one knows the real figure). Denied access to govt. services, proper employment etc. they are effectively "non-persons" with blighted lives and prone to victimisation by unscrupulous officials and others.

The programme will be repeated at 22.00 (Egypt local time) tomorrow....well worth watching.

Why don't they register, does it cost money? By what you say they are missing out on many things.

Part of the problem was that until 2009 you had to show a religion on your ID application form - but you could only choose between, jewish, Christian or muslim. If you were of another religion or of no religion and were not prepared to lie then you wouldn't get an ID card. Since 2009 you now have 4 choices, the 4th being a dash.

I should imagine that a lot of them will be doing a quick dash shortly after the up-coming elections.

Chocolate Eclair wrote:Why don't they register, does it cost money? By what you say they are missing out on many things.

If it were that simple. the problem wouldn't exist. If you watch the program (it's available on the Aljazeera website *) you will see why it's so difficult for these unregistered people to correct the situation. The process involves a complex bureaucratic process. almost impossible for the generally uneducated/illiterate to negotiate....and yes, money has to change hands.

*http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/alj ... 85389.html

newcastle wrote:

Chocolate Eclair wrote:Why don't they register, does it cost money? By what you say they are missing out on many things.

If it were that simple. the problem wouldn't exist. If you watch the program (it's available on the Aljazeera website *) you will see why it's so difficult for these unregistered people to correct the situation. The process involves a complex bureaucratic process. almost impossible for the generally uneducated/illiterate to negotiate....and yes, money has to change hands.

*http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/alj ... 85389.html

Thank you for the url. I have turned it into a link and will watch it later.

So many of these unregistered Egyptians are
members of the Baha'i faith founded in Persia
- monotheistic like the other three but not tolerated
in Egypt, nor in other Muslim countries. They are able
with difficulty and the help of Cairo groups to get
scholarships in other countries - USA and Australia
particularly - but this always separates the families.
It's a tough life for them.

Remus

I have yet to watch the program, but how can these people travel abroad without appropriate paperwork?

Same method as the boat people I would presume.

Remus wrote:So many of these unregistered Egyptians are
members of the Baha'i faith founded in Persia
- monotheistic like the other three but not tolerated
in Egypt, nor in other Muslim countries. They are able
with difficulty and the help of Cairo groups to get
scholarships in other countries - USA and Australia
particularly - but this always separates the families.
It's a tough life for them.

"So many......"? Do you have basis for this assertion? According to the statistics available there are less than 10.000 Baha'i in Egypt.

It appeared to me that the problem had little, if anything, to do with the individual's religion.

Bearded Brian wrote:Part of the problem was that until 2009 you had to show a religion on your ID application form - but you could only choose between, jewish, Christian or muslim. If you were of another religion or of no religion and were not prepared to lie then you wouldn't get an ID card. Since 2009 you now have 4 choices, the 4th being a dash.

Interesting, when I got married in the embassy last month, I put 'none' in the religion bit and the chap on the desk told me I had to put Christian, Jew or Muslim as the MOJ would not marry me as an atheist. There was no dash alternative

Brian Yare wrote:Thank you for the url. I have turned it into a link and will watch it later.

Unable to start it last night. I will try again tonight.

Robbo70 wrote:

Bearded Brian wrote:Part of the problem was that until 2009 you had to show a religion on your ID application form - but you could only choose between, jewish, Christian or muslim. If you were of another religion or of no religion and were not prepared to lie then you wouldn't get an ID card. Since 2009 you now have 4 choices, the 4th being a dash.

Interesting, when I got married in the embassy last month, I put 'none' in the religion bit and the chap on the desk told me I had to put Christian, Jew or Muslim as the MOJ would not marry me as an atheist. There was no dash alternative

Sounds like a bureaucrat not quite up to speed with the regs....or fishing for some financial inducement. How unusual

So what instant conversion did you opt for ?

It was the british embassy that made the point so no cost. I opted for christian as thsts how I was brought up

I watched this programme, and have nothing but respect and admiration for the people on it. Their parents had either not registered them at birth or marriage was not registered and this has caused all the problems. However, they are all working hard to provide for their families, and in the case of the young man, himself.
One lady with children was denied access to healthcare, flour etc because of this and at the end of the programme had won her case to get registered, she had been working as a seamstress to support her children because her marriage was not registered and when her husband died the problems began.
When you think how many people use our NHS who have never paid into it, and put that against her having to pay a fortune for medical assistance and treatment in her own country when her children got ill.
It was heartbreaking and I was so pleased that it was sorted out for the ones in the programme.

newcastle wrote:

Robbo70 wrote:

Bearded Brian wrote:Part of the problem was that until 2009 you had to show a religion on your ID application form - but you could only choose between, jewish, Christian or muslim. If you were of another religion or of no religion and were not prepared to lie then you wouldn't get an ID card. Since 2009 you now have 4 choices, the 4th being a dash.

Interesting, when I got married in the embassy last month, I put 'none' in the religion bit and the chap on the desk told me I had to put Christian, Jew or Muslim as the MOJ would not marry me as an atheist. There was no dash alternative

Sounds like a bureaucrat not quite up to speed with the regs....or fishing for some financial inducement. How unusual ;)

No, it's a bureaucrat who understands that the marriage law is derived from the religion, in this case because the man is Muslim, from the Quran, which states that a Muslim man may only marry a Christian, Jew or fellow Muslim. Otherwise, the marriage is not a marriage. Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus etc. cannot marry in Egypt. It's also important that the marriage contract state the religion because otherwise inheritance cannot be determined.

I found the program interesting as well. It amused me to see at the end that Aljazeera gained the ID's for the other two after it taking the woman fifteen years of continual disappointment to get hers. That will probably mean another year each for their reporters for interfering in government matters. It was interesting to note that the clothes seller dealt in $ and not Le. You would of thought that there wouldn't be that many $ bills floating around in a relatively poor area.

Glyphdoctor wrote:

newcastle wrote:
Sounds like a bureaucrat not quite up to speed with the regs....or fishing for some financial inducement. How unusual

No, it's a bureaucrat who understands that the marriage law is derived from the religion, in this case because the man is Muslim, from the Quran, which states that a Muslim man may only marry a Christian, Jew or fellow Muslim. Otherwise, the marriage is not a marriage. Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus etc. cannot marry in Egypt. It's also important that the marriage contract state the religion because otherwise inheritance cannot be determined.

Advice to all non-adherents of the Abrahamic religions marrying a muslim man, in Egypt : put muslim/christian/jew on the form (whichever floats your boat that day).....who cares

(Please don't tell me they ask for evidence )

When I married they didn't but I heard others that married later did have to provide proof they had converted. I did have to get a shahada certificate a few weeks later though when we applied for the resident visa as they wouldn't accept what was written on the marriage certificate alone. Go figure.

I'd be less concerned about the bureaucrats than I would about the man one is marrying. If he doesn't have an issue with marrying someone outside those 3 faiths, you have to wonder how serious he is about treating the whole relationship as a marriage, rather than bizness.

Glyphdoctor wrote:
I'd be less concerned about the bureaucrats than I would about the man one is marrying. If he doesn't have an issue with marrying someone outside those 3 faiths, you have to wonder how serious he is about treating the whole relationship as a marriage, rather than bizness.

You know Glyph, I don't know if 'My Omar is Different' but he is a decent man, a quiet man, a man who has never asked for a bean and one who compliments my fiery nature with a placid nature. We are the same age. I hate to **** on your bonfire but not every single Egyptian man is in it for biznesss.... or is your husband the only perfect one perhaps?

Omar always assumed I was a Christian. He knows my mother has a strong faith, and knows I was baptised and comfirmed into the church of England. He understands my goal in life is to be a decent person, and not to harm others, steal or lie. I try to live a good life and he accepts that being a decent person is more important to me than a book of rules. Strangely, Omar would prefer to marry someone with decent ethics and a sense of right and wrong than someone who prays daily and acts like a tosser. Even more strange perhaps... he doesn't go the mosque 5 times a day either, preferring to live life as decently as he can with a sense of right and wrong also. Not everyone spouting religion is a good person.