Luxor4u

It is unsurprising that sources from the Egyptian "government" including the Egyptian ambassador are denying what has happened, and downplaying the actions taken,

The government claims that "minimal force" was used by the military, yet there are over 500 dead, as seen by eyewitnesses and independent reporters.
As usual the Egyptian "authorities" are trying to play down the extent of the massacre, but the world has been witness to this dreadful event.

Taking TV stations etc off air, killing reporters, are all actions being used y the authorities, they think that they can suppress the information and reality of the situation by these methods.
Military tactics used resemble that of "scorched earth" policy so they attempt to eradicate all traces of the situation. There is a lot of propaganda against the Islamists which certainly isn't true, like the burning of Christian churches.
The use of snipers to shoot at unarmed civilians, along with heavy handed military tactics is so wrong, and he worst thing is trying to cover these actions up by lies. Sad, very sad.
The same thing was happening in the revolution, by the then Mubarak regime.
When someone is elected in a free and fair election, no matter what, the only way to deal with this is to hold another election. End of.

Now it seems the repercussions from this will go on forever, and to the detriment of Egypt and its people. The situation is truly desperate. And one thing is certain, lies are to the answer and will cause further problems.

You are right. This is a grave and depressing time for anyone with the slightest connection to Egypt. But given some of the indifferent and facetious comments by some on here you might think that nothing bad has happened...

We can just hope that Egypt doesn't go the way of Algeria in the 1990s with a prolonged civil insurgency.


They will defintely be concerned when Thomson and Easyjet stop all Egypt flights for many years, which is what some on here seem most concerned about...

Jewel, in all honesty how can you call the burning of the Christian Churches 'propaganda' and 'untrue?' It's widely documented, happening all over the country, and there is considerable photographic evidence to support it. And nobody is denying it. The MB are not seeking to hide it, they're glorifying it. Meanwhile other Muslims (the majority) who do not agree with this secular 'scapegoating' of the Coptic community are linking hands and forming protective rings around the Churches in the attempt to prevent them being vandalised and torched. And it's not just Churches, it's schools hotels, shops, homes, anything Christian owned.

Have you not seen the list of Churches and Christian property attacked by Morsi supporters provided in one of BBLux's posts. It's extensive. If you don't believe it and think it's just propaganda, check it out. Apparently this morning a crowd of Morsi supporters attempted to storm the 'Two Saints' Church in Alexandria but there were violent clashes when local residents saw them off! Fair play to them for that!

Denial and 'downplaying'? Well, I think you've just given us a prime example of that yourself Jewel!

Why dont you come here Jewel and speak to the Copts, the owners of Hotels which have been burnt out the supermarket owners whose livlihood has been destroyed.
The lies have now begun like you said but one of the lies is not about the Copts being targeted by the MB.

One of the good things about the Jan 2011 revolution was that while the moslims were praying the christians were protecting, and vice versa. But the MB were not involved then.

My friends in Luxor are mainly moslim, but they all say that they would rather deal with (or trust) a christian.

If the army have to get even harder on the MB protestors then I hope they get it over quickly. Then the path to normality can begin.

How can you possibly deny what the eyes of the world are witnessing?

I for one cannot stand Islam, especially in it's extreme forms, but likewise I do not tolerate widespread massacre and corruption the like of whichis gripping Egypt today.
There is a great polarisation now, sadly,and the grief endured by those who have lost loved ones will inevitably turn to anger and further extremism,and it's difficult to see how the nation will ever come together again, the alternative is gloomy for bothe Egypt and the wider middle east, which would be an inexorable march either to extreme suppression of the MB, with he associated dangers, or widespread civil war.

The west is continually being criticised for inaction, but today Obama announced cancellation of joint military operation, and Cameron has said the aid package is under review, but now it is a humanitarian and economic crisis, so difficult to see where to go from here.

There is a huge discrepancy in the figures for the dead from the official ones to those not registered, as apparently the army are not issuing death certificates for a lot of the dead, not allowing families to bury their loved ones, as to do that they have to issue certificates, which would show the true figures of the dead.it's cynical beyond belief.

The international community must establish the facts, precisely what happened and why, and a full enquiry MUST be undertaken, as there are so many real differing views from civilians and their families on the ground, and the army.

The military government appears to be in denial, and has authorised their ambassador to say things that simply were not true, like that it was " proportionate " and the actions were " humane", frankly the vocabulary used was not only ridiculous, but offensive, and how can they say it was proportionate when the worlds cameras and reporters were there witnessing it.and to take footage out of context and extrapolate it as two evenly matched military groups going hammer and tongs at each other is ludicrous, the blame game that is now emerging and engulfing what is a crisis that has huge ramifications not only in Egypt but throughout the middle east is very unedifying.
I know personally from living in Egypt how information is "manoeuvred" and suppressed so that indeed those living there are not aware of the real picture of events.

The full scale of the horror has not yet emerged, and the contagion will spread rapidly. But lies and cover ups are not the way forward for Egypt, the picture of the burnout mosque at Rabaah al-adawiya mosque in Cairo says it all to me

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a1b84584-059c ... ab7de.html#

The general picture emerging from Egypt is truly of scorched earth policy.

In situations like this there is always propaganda Jewel. But from what I can see the bulk of it is coming from the MB not the Military. What 'lies' are you talking about? I don't think that either side has been able to give an accurate death toll until recently. The MB wildly exaggerate the figures at in excess of 2000 and the figures released by the Army have steadily increased to the current figure of around 500. Does this mean they were lying in the first instance? No, I don't think so. They've just revised the figures as the medical authorities advise them of more casualties.

And the latest bit of propaganda? Claims that women and children were burned alive by the Police in their tents. And pictures on the MB controlled News Channel RNN of charred bodies. Terrible? Well yes. Until it was exposed that these poor unfortunate souls were not killed in Rabaa Sq. during the clearances at all. But in Morocco over a year ago at which time the picture was published in a Moroccan paper. After the episode with the supposedly 'Egyptian' children who turned out not to have been killed by the Army and not even to be Egyptian but Syrian you would have thought they would have learned their lesson. Pathetic and scurrilous lies.

And the Rabaa mosque. Burned out yes. But not too badly judging by the photographs. 'Egyptian Streets' report that the Army claim the protesters who were encamped in there set fire to it during the dispersal. The MB have not commented. They also report that the current figure of burned Churches stands at 45. And I notice Jewel that you have not re-iterated your claim that the widespread reports of attacks on the Copts are just 'propaganda'. Does this mean that you now accept that they are not?

Quote Jewel:I know personally from living in Egypt how information is "manoeuvred" and suppressed so that indeed those living there are not aware of the real picture of events.

Maybe but, you don't live here now and haven't since Mubarak's ejection.....
Ps: and the advent of the internet.....

Indeed, but still visit periodically and have family/ friends still there, in both Luxor and Cairo - both Muslim and Christian, so do hear a wide range of viewpoints, albeit fairly biased I have to say, but that is not really the issue here, and there is indeed a form of "brainwashing" that takes effect exactly by the way information is manipulated there among other things.

TT yes, of course there is a lot of "propaganda" from both sides, but you can't deny the actual eye witness reports of independent reporters and journalists. Make no mistake I am not siding with anyone, especially the Muslims, as I have always maintained, it is ISLAM that is the big problem, not only in Egypt, but worldwide, and recent events in Egypt have highlighted this, I wonder how long it will take before all the followers of this religion of "peace" acknowledge this fact?

The MB's are an evil and despicable collective of unwanted trash. Their removal needs to be absolute. Then this glorious country can retake the position of one of the finest empires the world has ever witnessed. Blaming the police for every death? Fall into the very deep pit of misinformation and bigoted thoughts and comment. All Islam is bad? Never. All Christians good? Never.

There are 'eyewitness' reports from both sides Jewel, and some are more credible than others. And some are downright laughable. There was a video in circulation recently of MB protestors being filmed in the act of 'staging' deaths and injuries, faking the injuries and arranging the 'corpses' for maximum effect, usually with a crying woman at their side.

I also believe (and this is a widespread opinion) that the News channels, particularly the Qatari owned Al-Jazeera, CNN, Sky and even the BBC have been very selective about the reports they air. This is to be expected in the case of the Qatari channels as they are big supporters and funders of the MB. And the American channels seem to be floundering about unsure what line to take and primarily concerned with Obama and the issue of the military aid provided to Egypt. But the European channels? France 24 seems fairly unbiased, but the BBC? Well I can only say that I am disappointed in some of their coverage. But then, the British public love nothing more than stories of oppressive Governments (especially military) riding roughshod over a helpless population excercising their right to peaceful protest. And it's natural to take the 'moral highground' under such circumstances.

However, the situation in Egypt is far more complicated than that, as anybody who has been in the country throughout the disturbances will be very well aware. The MB are not 'helpless' but well organised well funded and powerful, and their demonstrations were not always peaceful. And outside of the Cairo sit-ins, primarily in Sinai and Alexandria their supporters have been committing violent atrocities since Morsi was deposed. Concerted attempts were made to include them in the transitional Government with a view to their participation in the Presidential elections and ultimately the Government proper. So, they have not been marginalised either. But they will not accept merely being involved in the Government. They want to BE the Government again. With Morsi at the helm. Well they had their chance at that and they blew it most decisively!

But there was certainly never any need for 'Martyrdom' as they choose to call it.

For heavens sake Jewel !!!

Can't you see what is happening in Egypt & other places courtesy of the MB, Al quaeda etc.

Who exactly do you think are burning churches, hotels etc ??

Some stand has to be made against them, or would you rather wait until along with churches they blow up the ancient sites & monuments of Egypt .... They've done it in other countries, or did you miss that bit ?

They claim they are "unarmed" their poor pawns & puppets might be, who they said the other day had been encouraged to take their children to that stupid camp in Cairo as their children would be so honoured to be martyred !!!

Good grief.

The lies have been here for weeks and everyone here knows it and who is spreading them.

TAL777 wrote:You are right. This is a grave and depressing time for anyone with the slightest connection to Egypt. But given some of the indifferent and facetious comments by some on here you might think that nothing bad has happened...

We can just hope that Egypt doesn't go the way of Algeria in the 1990s with a prolonged civil insurgency.


They will definitely be concerned when Thomson and Easyjet stop all Egypt flights for many years, which is what some on here seem most concerned about...

They have been stopped a while now and of course we are concerned I have over 20 staff whose families need feeding and many others are having them same difficulties we shall have to adapt so be it, its already being done.

Some of us are supporting Egypt and our friends the best we can not just sitting by a computer.

http://www.auscma.com/2013/08/16/coptic ... blind-eye/

Coptic Churches Burn across Egypt whilst the World Turns a Blind Eye
Posted by Sarah on August 16th, 2013

The Australian Coptic Movement Association (“ACM”) is greatly alarmed by the rapid turn of events affecting Coptic Christians in Egypt over the past 24 hours.

Only 2 days ago, we released the following Press Release, calling for action in response to the incitement and violence targeting Copts: http://www.auscma.com/2013/08/13/press- ... -in-egypt/

Whilst the Western media is focused on the military raids and the loss of life that has ensued, mainstream news outlets have largely ignored the widespread coordinated attacks on Coptic Christians throughout Egypt. Coptic churches, monasteries, schools and Coptic-owned properties have been destroyed in violent rampages by Islamists across the country since the military crackdown. Below is a list of the number and location of Churches that have been looted and burnt across Egypt. According to this list, 45 Christian Churches and a further 11 Christian institutions have been burnt and damaged. At the time of publishing this statement, reports of further attacks have been received. Indeed, it is difficult to keep track of the number attacks over the last 24 hours – the level of abuse of Egypt’s Christians is unprecedented.

The senseless loss of life in Egypt is against the spirit of the popular “Tamarod” Revolution that occurred on 30 June 2013. However, the ACM rejects the notion that all Muslim Brotherhood supporters are “peaceful”. For several weeks now, pro-Morsi supporters and MB leaders have been inciting hatred and violence against Egypt’s Coptic Christians. Copts are being used as scapegoats by the MB for the ousting of former President Morsi.

Western leaders have failed to take the dire issue facing Copts seriously and seem to be more interested in protecting the rights of those who persecute Christians.

The ACM repeats its call for an urgent investigation into these attacks and the immediate implementation by the Egyptian interim Government of adequate measures to safeguard the safety and security of Egypt’s Christian minority.

In the meantime we are collecting donations to assist those who have had their properties destroyed in Egypt. We are looking to assist small business owners and shop keepers as well as those who have been left homeless. http://www.auscma.com/donate-here/

List of Churches attacked, as of 14 August 2013

[Source: http://nilerevolt.wordpress.com/2013/08/14/1198/]

Alexandria

Father Maximus Church

Arish

St George Church | Burned |

Assiut

Good Shepherds Monastery | Nuns attacked
Angel Michael Church | Surrounded
St George Coptic Orthodox Church |
Al-Eslah Church| Burned |
Adventist Church | Pastor and his wife kidnapped |
St Therese Church |
Apostles Church | Burning |
Holy Revival Church | Burning |

Beni Suef

The Nuns School |
St George Church | al-Wasta

Cairo

St Fatima Basilica | Heliopolis | Attempted Attack

Fayoum

St Mary Church | El Nazlah |
St Damiana Church | Robbed and burned
Amir Tawadros (St Theodore) Church
Evangelical Church | al-Zorby Village | Looting and destruction
Church of Joseph | Burned |
Franciscan School | Burned |

Gharbiya

Diocese of St Paul | Burned |

Giza

Father Antonios
Atfeeh Bishopric

Minya

Church of the Virgin Mary and Father Abram | Delga, Deir Mawas |
St Mina Church | Abu Hilal Kebly, Beni Hilal |
Baptist Church | Beni Mazar |
Deir Mawas Bishopric
Delga Church | Attacked (Previously attacked with fire)
The Jesuit Fathers Church | Abu Hilal district
St Mark Church | Abu Hilal district
St Joseph Nunnery |
Amir Tadros Church |
Evangelical Church |
Anba Moussa al-Aswad Church
Apostles Church |

Qena

St Mary’s Church | Attempted Burning

Sohag

St George Church |
St Damiana | Attacked and burned |
Virgin Mary | Attacked and burned |
St Mark Church & Community Center
Anba Abram Church | Destroyed and burned |

Suez

St Saviours Anglican Church |
Franciscan Church and School | Street 23 | Burned |
Holy Shepherd Monastery and Hospital |
Good Shepherd Church (molotov cocktail thrown)- Relationship with Holy Shepherd Monastery unknown.
Greek Orthodox Church |

Christian Institutions

House of Father Angelos (Pastor of Church of the Virgin Mary and Father Abram) | Delga, Minya | Burned |
Properties and Markets of Copts | al-Gomhorreya Street, Assiut
Seventeen Coptic homes | Delga, Minya | Burned |
YMCA | Minya| Burned |
Coptic Homes | Qulta Street, Assiut | Attacked
Offices of the Evangelical Foundation & Oum al-Nour | Minya
Coptic-owned shops, pharmacy, and hotels | Karnak and Cleopatra Streets, Luxor | Attacked and Looted
Dahabeya Nile Boat | Minya| Church-owned |
Bible Society bookshop | Cairo | Burned |
Bible Society | Fayoum |
Bible Society | al-Gomohoreya Street, Assiut |
- See more at: http://www.auscma.com/2013/08/16/coptic ... ctgSU.dpuf

Bombay wrote:Some of us are supporting Egypt and our friends the best we can not just sitting by a computer.

Some of you seems to be spending a lot of time sitting by a computer this afternoon. Is that the best way that you can support Egypt and your friends?

Well its very hot here and the town is closed, my staff are at work and still in jobs so what do you suggest and what are you doing to support

Brian Yare wrote:

Bombay wrote:Some of us are supporting Egypt and our friends the best we can not just sitting by a computer.

Some of you seems to be spending a lot of time sitting by a computer this afternoon. Is that the best way that you can support Egypt and your friends?

And what would you suggest Brian? Perhaps when on the computer everyone should be helping you sort out your holiday to an alternative location.

Trying to engage with some sort of communication with those who can make a difference would be a step in the right direction.