How safe is Luxor?

[Winged Isis]

GD: "Really? You think taking off shoes and covering one's hair is about respecting OTHERS? What gave you the idea people go to the mosque to make a show for other people?"

It's respecting their beliefs and the expectations when entering a place of worship, obviously. Nitpicking. Tedious. :yawn:

1. Did it ever occur to you that there might be a religious reason that has nothing to do with respect? 2. No, you didn't clearly and you are just spouting off whatever enters your mind. 3. There are ahadith explaining why these things are done. 4. And you are completely incorrect.

Sigh, still nitpicking.
1. Yes I did.
2. No, I'm not: you are not the only foreigner with knowledge of Islam.
3. Ditto.
4. Ditto.

Every post you make on this makes you look smaller and less respectful.

[Winged Isis]

To Winged Isis: "I never said I did it to blend in, with my complexion and eyes that would be ridiculous. As I said, that would also be insulting. No, they weren't talking to me, just quietly to each other. No harrassment, no teasing, just an aside. I never said it was a compliment; they were simply making an observation. You are making mountains out of molehills. "

In previous posts you have mused that friends, family and even Egyptians have said that you look Egyptian - with fair hair and blue eyes? Something not right here.

There was another thing that was not right here. She said she was wearing sunglasses but then claimed of course they knew she wasn't Egyptian because of her blue eyes...

If you really look Egyptian, people will treat you the same as an Egyptian, NOT tell you that you look Egyptian. They only do that to flatter people.

You are mixing posts. I said the family have seen my eyes. Get your facts right. You think you are winding me up. Laughable. But as usual you are too busy jumping to conclusions to be accurate about my posts. Now you've got ID doing it too!

Like Azurite said...

[Goddess]

Have we moved on from whether Luxor is safe or not and back to my favourite topic of hassle (speaking as one who has had an ear full of it this week)??

[Robbo70]

Anyway.... back to the safety of Luxor

Having just spent 2 weeks pottering about the old place I did notice a few changes.

By day, everything seems very much the same. Same hassle from caleche and taxi drivers, although in fairness, as many do recognise me, I dont get as much hassle as the first time wide eyed tourists. There was a hint of desperation from shop owners as times are hard, but again, nothing menacing or nasty from them.

By night, I noticed there were 'gangs' of young men roamnig about, and while no one bothered me, I didnt feel as comfortable when walking past. The possy of motorbikes riding about has increased ten fold though, and while again, no trouble occured, I was aware of what others had encountered from reports on here and stayed alert. I did however, get quite a few women approach me asking for money. Well dressed and presentable women, not the usual dirty ones I often see begging.

In all, I would say the average tourist isnt going to find the place too intimidating by day and most probably arnt ambling about at 1am so it probably wouldnt affect them too much

[Glyphdoctor]

"I think you missed my point. If they felt you really were acting/dressing like an Egyptian, that you had achieved the level of respect they accord to an Egyptian, if you really had blended in, they would have never made such a remark to you in the first place. It's harassment and teasing. Saying you walk like an Egyptian is not a compliment or an indication that they think you are walking like an Egyptian. "

I never said I did it to blend in, with my complexion and eyes that would be ridiculous. As I said, that would also be insulting. No, they weren't talking to me, just quietly to each other. No harrassment, no teasing, just an aside.

I don't find any mention of family here...This statement was made in the context of what happened to you on the street. You were saying you wouldn't blend in on the street because of your eye color, but why would you even need to mention that at all when you were wearing sunglasses? As for the family, I am sure it isn't your eyes that make them know you aren't Egyptian. No need to reply to me though. Not looking to debate you or wind you up (as if you consider yourself as a source of cheap entertainment for me-lower the ego a notch please), just pointing out how what you are saying makes no logical sense.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Robbo - I find that quite interesting that you were approached by women who were more well dressed. I've experienced hassle from men and kids who can cry on demand but not from a woman (although I've seen some sitting on the streets and I assumed they were begging). And the kids were only in tourists areas.

Would this be a crack in a societal norm brought about the economic downturn?

Glyph is this something that you're seeing in Cairo? (Any thoughts or insights on this one would be appreciated)

[BENNU]

The well dressed, polished young women were there before the Revolution. I have only seen them in front of Mc Donalds, usually in groups and always with babies.

[Glyphdoctor]

I have not seen any particularly significant increase in the number of beggars here. There is a woman and her daughter who have been sitting outside Khair Zaman the last few days that wasn't there before but otherwise the beggars I see I recognize from before. I did discover the woman who sits in the wheelchair selling tissues in the middle of the street in the evening is able bodied because I have recently seen her out and about carrying her shopping a few times. On the other hand, I don't go wandering around Cairo either as much these days.

[Chocolate Eclair]

A4 that is JUSTEN and Lynne, I love reading some of Glyph's posts some are a little amusing some are abraisive but I have to admire the straight forwardness.. Reminds me very much of my Cousin, except my Cousin is American and lives in Lancaster County PA

[pinkmagic]

She is American too.

[Isis*dancer]

"I think you missed my point. If they felt you really were acting/dressing like an Egyptian, that you had achieved the level of respect they accord to an Egyptian, if you really had blended in, they would have never made such a remark to you in the first place. It's harassment and teasing. Saying you walk like an Egyptian is not a compliment or an indication that they think you are walking like an Egyptian. "

I never said I did it to blend in, with my complexion and eyes that would be ridiculous. As I said, that would also be insulting. No, they weren't talking to me, just quietly to each other. No harrassment, no teasing, just an aside.

I don't find any mention of family here...This statement was made in the context of what happened to you on the street. You were saying you wouldn't blend in on the street because of your eye color, but why would you even need to mention that at all when you were wearing sunglasses? As for the family, I am sure it isn't your eyes that make them know you aren't Egyptian. No need to reply to me though. Not looking to debate you or wind you up (as if you consider yourself as a source of cheap entertainment for me-lower the ego a notch please), just pointing out how what you are saying makes no logical sense.

To Winged Isis - I'm just looking at what you have written in the past. It make no sense what you are stating and is contradictory. Many of your post regarding your time in Luxor and your relationship are contradictory. I don't need GD to wind me up at all.

To GD - I agree with you on this one as I too, am just pointing out conflicting posts.

[Bearded Brian]

People keep saying that one reason for the change in Luxor (and probably the rest of Egypt too) is that there's no money - so how come there are so many new cars being driven around (I know they are new as they don't have many dents or scratches) and where is all the money coming from to build all these new houses. True the poorest of the poor may be worse off but why don't the egyptians with money help them? Hope the IMF and the World Bank lay down strict conditions for using any money they give / lend to Egypt and if the Egyptians don't like it let them get help from elsewhere.

[Teddyboy]

There is a lot of wealth in Luxor, and while people do give charitably there seems to be no real compassion for the poor, and certainly no will to eradicate the shocking poverty which does exist!

[Arthur]

People keep saying that one reason for the change in Luxor (and probably the rest of Egypt too) is that there's no money - so how come there are so many new cars being driven around (I know they are new as they don't have many dents or scratches) and where is all the money coming from to build all these new houses. True the poorest of the poor may be worse off but why don't the egyptians with money help them? Hope the IMF and the World Bank lay down strict conditions for using any money they give / lend to Egypt and if the Egyptians don't like it let them get help from elsewhere.

"Egypt’s finance minister announced Saturday that the country will not need to borrow from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) or the World Bank. He stated that the ministry succeeded in reducing the budget deficit by LE27.3 billion, to reach 8.6 per cent of GDP instead of 11 per cent.

News agencies reported that Samir Radwan explained that the military council preferred not having large foreign debts, so as not to put pressure on the new government that will come after upcoming elections."
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent ... MF-lo.aspx

So it looks like Egypt isn't going to be suffering mass starvation on "biblical proportions" as some predicted. Poverty and social justice need political solutions, which requires good local and national government. Lets all wish that comes in time.

But it's interesting to see that the We Are All Khaled Said movement are looking at addressing poverty as their key aim for social action. http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent ... -Egyp.aspx

I doubt that it's poverty that is the cause of the rise in anti-social disorder but the police and security vacuum, which allows elements that have always been there the opportunity to act with impunity. But it is Egyptians that are facing the brunt of this, not just tourists or expats. When Egypt becomes safer, more equal and prosperous for ordinary Egyptians, it will become safer for tourists and ex-pats.

One of the dangers is that there are commercial interests from tour companies and property developers to exploit the situation with hermetically sealed tours and gated communities.

[Maakari]

Yes, the Egyptians are having to face this situation without security or police presense.
Last night I ws on SKYPE to my husband, he was visting his parents out in one of the villages in Kamola. As I was talking I could hear a banging noise, I thought it was an artefact on the line. But, no, he said it was automatic gunfire!!!!!!!!!! There are still raids going on between midnight and dawn, people coming into the villages to rob houses of any valuables and livestock. They have gone back to the old way of having their livestock living with them thro' the hours of darkness, and the menfolk taking turns with a gun to protect their properties and families.

Before, any problems, and they could turn to the police in a goverment station in another village, but now just told to do what they can to protect themselves!
SCARY!!!!!!!!!!! i DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT A GUN LOOKS LIKE UP CLOSE!

[Who2]

Gamola has always had a reputation worse than Harlem for the past 5O years...
Soprano City

[Maakari]

I know it has that reputation, but for the 1st time in 5 years I have to have my bottom in the car and gone before darkness! Every one comes to house and asks if I am going now!
Seems funny not to be checked at the checkpoint by police and passport perused and asked what time I will be back in Luxor, what ones are there just wave at us!

We were very aware of lack of security when we drove to Hurghada few weeks ago. Normally going across desert road there are very stringent checks. Almost had the tumbleweed balls rolling across the checkpoints! very weird!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just warned at "welcome break!!!" coffee shop, DO NOT STOP FOR ANYONE, NOT EVEN IF THEY ARE LYING IN THE ROAD!, keep driving and drive fast!

:army:

[Teddyboy]

"But it is Egyptians that are facing the brunt of this"

That's very true Arthur. The complaints from ex-pats, and tourists in general, pale into insignificance when compared to the problems which the inhabitants of the outlying places are enduring.

I'm pleased that I'm in the relative safety of the town centre. Roll on some decent form of government, for everyone's sake

[Arthur]

Teddyboy, at last we are of one heart on something...

[Teddyboy]

"One of the dangers is that there are commercial interests from tour companies and property developers to exploit the situation with hermetically sealed tours and gated communities."

This has always been the case though. Only now they think they have more to justify their scare stories with.
I have always liked the pools at the Jolie Ville, and take a day room (or three) when my family and grandkids come to visit, but their 'drawbridge' thingy has always appalled me. It's only purpose is to frighten tourists into thinking that they are not safe unless they are within the Jolie Ville 'safety zone'.
I've lost count of the number of tour leaders I've heard repeating the same old guff about it not being safe to go out alone, that they must be with a guide who can protect them etc etc. They are now having a field day!
Thank Heaven that the only 'gated' type place (so far) is the "unEgyptian Experience" but who knows what's in store for the future?

Arthur, I prefer to get on with folk rather than not, and I'm sure that we are both concerned for the well-being of the people of Luxor and Egypt in general. As the great John Wesley once said, "If your heart is as my heart; then give me your hand!"