Luxor4u

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:28 pm**

Scottishtourist wrote:
Zooropa wrote:
Scottishtourist wrote:I really can't say that I have any problem with the ritual of animal sacrifice!

Again,a load of "liberals"yapping on about the unfairness to animals and how "incendiary"it is!

Let's not forget that Catholics "eat the body"of Christ and "drink his blood."

Not as a festival..but as an everyday occurrence!If they so wish.

Except you don't eat the body of Christ and drink his blood do you?

Its a piece of edible paper and wine, there would have to be an awful lot of him to go round.

Oh and if he is merciful then why does your church tell people if you don't have some water splashed on you before you die your going to hell?

Doesn't sound very merciful to me.

Perhaps the big J should update the manual, his management team are very off message.

That's a typical "unbelievers"point of view Z!
We DO eat his body and drink his blood.
That's the whole point of our beliefs and our understanding of HUMAN sacrifice..nothing as inconsequential as ANIMAL sacrifice!
There's plenty of HIM to go around.HE'S all seeing,loving,merciful and totally omnipotent!
What's the point of "consecration"if we don't believe this?
It may resemble edible paper and wine to you...but it's far from it for a believer!

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:26 pm**

This mass slaughter in Nepal is all in the name of religion!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... mailonline

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:15 am**

Glyphdoctor wrote:http://islamqa.info/en/26952

Not sure where non-Muslims trying to ingratiate themselves with the neighbors slaughtering animals falls in the overall scheme of things...But frankly I don't see the point of non-Muslims doing things that Muslims do just to impress the Muslims. It's like play acting.

Its all about respect. It had been mentioned quite a few times as to whether we would have the house blessed by this sacrificial sheep. I looked into it and discovered that it was the excepted norm, not only to bless the house, but to fed the poor with the meat. I did not want to put up an imaginary barrier between them and I. They thinking that I could just move into the area as a foreigner and not take note of their customs. It was not to impress anyone, I have no need to do that, nor was it to blend in, as said, I was showing them that I, as they are to me, equal in my eyes. But, as is usual with you, you grasp the opportunity to undermine whatever I say concerning all things Egyptian because you can. Silly woman.

Zooropa wrote:
Dusak wrote:When we had our new house 'commissioned' by having a sheep sacrificed to bless it, I wasn't happy to see the way it was put down, quite brutal in fact. I did this as the first step into my new Muslim community, a sign of respect. I'm a meat eater, but I'm also an animal lover. Sacrifices are OK if part of a culture, but I would like to see less suffering of the livestock to achieve this. Even in the UK many a firm has been brought to task for their none observance of the correct procedures of slaughtering. And we in the West are supposed to be more civilized, some say. I would like to know if all these sacrificial offerings went to feed the poor and needy, not just laid to waste.
So if the tradition had been to beat someone up would you have respected it?

Sacrifices are ok if part of a culture?

No.

Something is either acceptable or it isn't, im surprised at you Dusak, don't usually get mealy mouthed excuses from you.

And by the way, im not really an animal lover.

Its is silly to use beating up a person as an alternative to make a point.

Who am I to say that I have the right to alter a persons way of life? Culture is culture. To many people think that the first rule of integration into another culture/country is to change it to their own preferences. Not I.

These were not mealy mouthed excuses, it was a fact of part of my life living here and if I ever moved to another new house I would do the exact same thing.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:46 am**

Im afraid it was mealy mouthed in my view.

You allowed something which you didn't like and would not do yourself to occur in your own house.

The example was not silly, violence in a lot of cultures is accepted as part and parcel of everyday life.

Who are you to alter a persons way of life?

That's not the point really, its one thing to not interfere with that and another to allow them to do it in your home.

To say its ok to do something if its part of a culture gives free license to do a lot of bad things.

Im sorry my friend, but I question whether you would do the same thing in another house in every situation, im sure there are some things you would not accede to.

I just disagree with you that you think its ok to do things if its part of a culture, where do you draw the line?

We read on here recently about persecution of people attempting inter-faith relationships and FGM, I think you have spoken out against these things yet both could be described as part of the "culture"

You have quite rightly spoken out against the beating of females and have refused to engage with the people in your friends family that have done this but again this is very much part of the "culture".

I think you are being inconsistent.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:15 pm**

As I said elsewhere, I had the very same situation as Dusak occurring, literally, on my doorstep. I did indicate to my friends that it's a practice I feel very uncomfortable with, one I would not wish to witness or participate in.

I'm happy to say my friends are intelligent people and weren't in any way put out. They know I have no religious beliefs and, as far as I can tell, do not condemn me for that.

Nor did I feel anything useful would have been achieved by making a song & dance about it.

It wasn't the pleasantest evening I've spent....but it wasn't worth risking the upset it might have caused if I'd taken a stronger line (as I could have....it was MY doorstep!)

If that makes me sound like a bit of a wimp.....well, I prefer the term "pragmatist". Living in the world of islam is not easy for us atheists and I can envisage some circumstances where I might be forced to 'vote with my feet' as it were. That would be a very sad day for me indeed.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:01 pm**

Ok newcastle.

How would you feel if I one day came on the forum and announced that I had "renounced"my faith?
Would it be a source of jubilation for you?
Would you and Mr Z(some others too)rejoice?

Would you hang out banners,bunting,etc,and welcome me to the "club?"

Or would you question my reasons as to why I've taken this step and made this decision?
Is it because I'm disillusioned?Is it because I now believe that all Catholic priests are paedophiles?
Or is it because I've become fed up with being "indoctrinated?"

Frankly,my dear..you wouldn't give a damn!!!

So,why rattle on about any religious practices..when it really don't concern you as you proclaim to be Atheist anyway?

Really shouldn't bother you one way or the other.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:54 pm**

If those religious practices lead to the spread of HIV ( due to a prohibition on condoms by a celibate priesthood), the mutilation of little girls and the mass slaughter of animals then yes I think we should be concerned. Look at the ME and the chaos the adherence to faith has caused, I think everybody including atheists like myself should be concerned about that.
If you did give up your faith ST I may not be dancing in the streets but I would be glad that you'd realised you'd been believing the adult equivalent of mermaids, unicorns or fairies at the bottom of the garden, but far far more damaging.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:02 pm**

Scottishtourist wrote:Ok newcastle.

How would you feel if I one day came on the forum and announced that I had "renounced"my faith?
Would it be a source of jubilation for you?
Would you and Mr Z(some others too)rejoice?

Would you hang out banners,bunting,etc,and welcome me to the "club?"

Or would you question my reasons as to why I've taken this step and made this decision?
Is it because I'm disillusioned?Is it because I now believe that all Catholic priests are paedophiles?
Or is it because I've become fed up with being "indoctrinated?"

Frankly,my dear..you wouldn't give a damn!!!

So,why rattle on about any religious practices..when it really don't concern you as you proclaim to be Atheist anyway?

Really shouldn't bother you one way or the other.

The response of stevepj says all that needs to be said.

What YOU need to do ST is stop babbling on and content yourself with the no doubt firm belief that I, Z. and other disbelievers will burn eternally in the flames of hell.

Something for you to draw comfort from surely?

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:27 pm**

newcastle wrote:
Scottishtourist wrote:Ok newcastle.

How would you feel if I one day came on the forum and announced that I had "renounced"my faith?
Would it be a source of jubilation for you?
Would you and Mr Z(some others too)rejoice?

Would you hang out banners,bunting,etc,and welcome me to the "club?"

Or would you question my reasons as to why I've taken this step and made this decision?
Is it because I'm disillusioned?Is it because I now believe that all Catholic priests are paedophiles?
Or is it because I've become fed up with being "indoctrinated?"

Frankly,my dear..you wouldn't give a damn!!!

So,why rattle on about any religious practices..when it really don't concern you as you proclaim to be Atheist anyway?

Really shouldn't bother you one way or the other.
The response of stevepj says all that needs to be said.

What YOU need to do ST is stop babbling on and content yourself with the no doubt firm belief that I, Z. and other disbelievers will burn eternally in the flames of hell.

Something for you to draw comfort from surely?

Yes newcastle!
I'll dance on your graves and pray that you are allowed into heaven/paradise!
Cos,GOD loves a trier!lol x

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:32 pm**

Scottishtourist wrote:
newcastle wrote:
Scottishtourist wrote:Ok newcastle.

How would you feel if I one day came on the forum and announced that I had "renounced"my faith?
Would it be a source of jubilation for you?
Would you and Mr Z(some others too)rejoice?

Would you hang out banners,bunting,etc,and welcome me to the "club?"

Or would you question my reasons as to why I've taken this step and made this decision?
Is it because I'm disillusioned?Is it because I now believe that all Catholic priests are paedophiles?
Or is it because I've become fed up with being "indoctrinated?"

Frankly,my dear..you wouldn't give a damn!!!

So,why rattle on about any religious practices..when it really don't concern you as you proclaim to be Atheist anyway?

Really shouldn't bother you one way or the other.
The response of stevepj says all that needs to be said.

What YOU need to do ST is stop babbling on and content yourself with the no doubt firm belief that I, Z. and other disbelievers will burn eternally in the flames of hell.

Something for you to draw comfort from surely?
Yes newcastle!
I'll dance on your graves and pray that you are allowed into heaven/paradise!
Cos,GOD loves a trier!lol x

See you there then !

)

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:20 pm**

Transubstantiation is very much a Roman Catholic thing. Most other denominations do not believe that their bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ.

Many churches now use individual cups/glasses for the (non-alcoholic) wine rather than a shared chalice, not believing in the power of Christ to protect them from contamination.

But each to their own!

Brian

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:30 pm**

Brian Yare wrote:Transubstantiation is very much a Roman Catholic thing. Most other denominations do not believe that their bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ.

Many churches now use individual cups/glasses for the (non-alcoholic) wine rather than a shared chalice, not believing in the power of Christ to protect them from contamination.

But each to their own!

Brian

We drink "Buckfast"Mr Yare!
How do I know this?Cos,my 3 kids were all altar servers and told me so!
And,to my knowledge,they were never abused by the priest or indoctrinated in any way,shape or form!

But..it ain't "buckfast"or even other any kind of tonic wine produced by monks when we drink it!
It's blood of Christ!

Enough said!

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:41 pm**

I tried to find a non-alcoholic wine on the Buckfast website but failed. They do sell Chartreuse though. I would consder converting to any church that offered this nectar at its services!

I was an altar sever in my youth. My CofE church served real red wine, although watered down. We often helped to dispose of any excess as it could not simply be poured away!

p.s. My name is Brian. No need to address me as Mr Yare.

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:13 pm**

Brian Yare wrote: I would consider converting to any church that offered this nectar at its services!

My CofE church served real red wine, although watered down. We often helped to dispose of any excess as it could not simply be poured away!

"My name is Brian."

"Hello Brian!"

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:15 pm**

Ok Brian.

Let me share happy little tale with you.

All my kids served on altar.My youngest daughter went faithfully to Mass every day of her school holidays.She served weddings,funerals,requiem Masses,et al!

One day I was particularly hard up for cash.The kids wanted sweets and I had no spare cash to get them any.
God love her!At age 8 she brought out little purse in shop and gave me fiver!She'd "earned"it from serving weddings and funerals.Do you really appreciate how much respect is given to a little altar server by a grieving family?It's so beautiful to see them on the altar,showing respect and giving up their time to attend the priest with the Requiem Mass.

I once asked her if she was happy doing this.Wouldn't she rather have a "long lie?"Enjoy her holiday?

Her reply?...Mum,I could work that altar with my eyes shut.A budding entrepreneur at a young age!
Nothing sinister..just a little girl doing what she thought was correct..and showing respect(albeit with financial reward)at a very early age!

Posted: **Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:25 pm**

I was in the church choir - we got paid and/or tipped at weddings. But I never earned a fiver. That was a week's wages in the late 1950s and early 1960s! It would have taken several years worth of weddings at 0/6d or 1/- a shot!

Posted: **Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:06 am**

I was raised in a RC family, went to a RC school & also served as altar boy, was "confirmed" and all that...

Getting up at 5.30am to attend morning mass eventually paled for a young lad....although dressing up in the church finery was quite nice (all kids love to dress up!).

Father McTaggart patting your bum whenever he had the chance was a bit creepy...but no real harm.

The Monday morning "inquisitions"....did you go to church on Sunday? If not WHY NOT??...and consequent punishment for the offenders was a bore....as was inventing sins to "confess" every week.

Maybe things have improved since the 1950's

Posted: **Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:02 am**

Zooropa wrote:Im afraid it was mealy mouthed in my view.

You allowed something which you didn't like and would not do yourself to occur in your own house.

The example was not silly, violence in a lot of cultures is accepted as part and parcel of everyday life.

Who are you to alter a persons way of life?

That's not the point really, its one thing to not interfere with that and another to allow them to do it in your home.

To say its ok to do something if its part of a culture gives free license to do a lot of bad things.

Im sorry my friend, but I question whether you would do the same thing in another house in every situation, im sure there are some things you would not accede to.

I just disagree with you that you think its ok to do things if its part of a culture, where do you draw the line?

We read on here recently about persecution of people attempting inter-faith relationships and FGM, I think you have spoken out against these things yet both could be described as part of the "culture"

You have quite rightly spoken out against the beating of females and have refused to engage with the people in your friends family that have done this but again this is very much part of the "culture".

I think you are being inconsistent.

Each to their own Zooropa. Just because I have voiced my opinions towards some ''cultural'' practices and objected strongly towards them, that does not mean that all should be placed into the same basket of ending them all. Take the animal rights movement when first started. They shouted out about cruelty to animals, that these painful experiments and treatments should be outlawed. So what did they do to put across their point? They kidnapped, firebombed their way through peoples lives. They released animals into the open that devastated the local wildlife, going on a killing spree themselves to survive. They have been linked to murder of scientists and researcher's involved in this field, a field of research that could save our lives, yours and your children's included, the dominant species of this planet. I know that this is not a ''cultural'' thing, but an example of how things can turn out when people that object to such practices, practices that have existed for hundreds of years are 'forced changed' on a population.

The decision that I made that day, was in my opinion, a valid on. The end result was that quite a few poor people in the area received meat. If you object to the act, then you have to object to the end result as well. One thing that I will never do is sign any form of partition against this that or the other, there are the correct channels to go through to achieve a change.

I see again that this post is being dominated by clergy with dirty habits and should people remove themselves from their religious beliefs because you and others do not prescribe to them. You have stated in the past that although you personally do not believe in such things people should be allowed to practice what is preached to them, then you have said in the past that all religions should be ended because you, and others, do not believe in God, heaven or hell. But others do. You smoke, and smoking has been referred to as a 'culture' but you strongly defend your right to smoke, yet condemn me for making a decision to engage myself within a culture that has existed far longer than the noble art of inhaling. Life is always about making decisions, sometimes you get it right, other times you get it wrong. In my case I'm quite happy with my decision.

On a final point, I have no problem with your terminology towards myself, a lively debate can enlighten, but a stagnant one, as this now is, only produces dross after many airings on the same topic.

Posted: **Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:59 am**

Normative religious doctrine and personal practice of religion are not the same thing.

Normative religious doctrine and culture are not the same thing.

Slaughtering an animal on the doorstep of a house was originally a pharaonic custom, one that continues until today in Luxor. The reason people do it today is because their grandfathers did it, nothing more.

If you ask most people what the benefit of it is, they will say it is to propitiate the jinn.

Islam recognizes jinn. But it forbids making sacrifices to them, which is what slaughtering an animal on the doorstep is.

Now, a lot of people however will say that it is ok under Islam, because that is the conventional wisdom they hear from their neighbors, or they may just assume it, because they lack religious education, or they haven't really given it much thought. Some will even say it is wrong, but do it anyway, because they are so scared of the jinn they let the desire to propitiate the jinn overwhelm their thinking.

So yes, it is a cultural norm and one that might even garner respect from some in the community, but does that mean I would do it? No.

Because I know it is not permitted by my religion, I'm not ignorant, so I have no excuse, and I must respect myself first and do what I know is right rather than try to impress others or the jinn.

I'm not going to run around telling my neighbors unasked that they shouldn't do it, but if someone suggested I do it, I would definitely refuse and politely explain to them why.

That non-Muslims are succumbing to pressure from their friends and neighbors to slaughter on their doorstep in the belief they are showing respect for Islam seems to me rather ironic, to say the least. Even if it WAS condoned by Islam, I certainly would not expect a non-Muslim to do it. Just like I don't mind if a non-Muslim eats in front of me during Ramadan.

There's a lot of things that people respect in Luxor that have no basis in religion or even international norms of decency. For example, a man who marries an old European lady, takes all her money to start a business, and dumps her and marries his cousin is "respected." He might even justify it religiously, pointing out the fact that the prophet's first wife was older than him and richer than him and he managed her business and finances for her. But he didn't set out to cheat her like many in Luxor do. When he builds his big villa and drives around in a new car and opens his 10 story hotel and slaughters a cow on the doorstep, everyone is impressed, because that is what the local culture respects, but is it right?

That same man might go to Europe and get drunk every night and have an affair and then tell his wife, well that is YOUR culture, so you have to accept me acting like this. Is that right either?

There is good and bad in every culture. Selectively adopting the good while not imitating the bad is the way to go in my opinion.

Posted: **Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:35 pm**

Scottishtourist wrote:Ok newcastle.

How would you feel if I one day came on the forum and announced that I had "renounced"my faith?
Would it be a source of jubilation for you?
Would you and Mr Z(some others too)rejoice?

Would you hang out banners,bunting,etc,and welcome me to the "club?"

Or would you question my reasons as to why I've taken this step and made this decision?
Is it because I'm disillusioned?Is it because I now believe that all Catholic priests are paedophiles?
Or is it because I've become fed up with being "indoctrinated?"

Frankly,my dear..you wouldn't give a damn!!!

So,why rattle on about any religious practices..when it really don't concern you as you proclaim to be Atheist anyway?

Really shouldn't bother you one way or the other.

I wouldn't be dancing in the street as an atheist. I would be intrigued, I would ask questions which would probably rattle you, and I would actually push you to be sure atheism was for you. You have a strong faith so if you gave it up I would be genuinely interested as to why.

As for all these ritual slaughters in many many different religions.. they sadden me in how they treated and killed but I respect peoples beliefs and their right to carry them out. Just don't slaughter something right next to me or there is a high risk I will throw up on you

Luxor4u

If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...