Egypt army opens fire on pro-Morsi protesters

[DJKeefy]

Troops have fired bullets into the crowd of pro-Morsi demonstrators marching on the Republican Guard Headquarters located on the edge of Cairo's Nasr City. 'At least' three have been reported dead, amid army denials.

The stream of bullets followed unconfirmed reports of warning shots being fired into the air as the Islamist crowd gathered on Salah Salem, marching towards the barracks where the deposed President is being held. Three have been reported dead, according to AFP, amid eyewitness accounts of several causalities.

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Supporters rallying for the reinstatement of Morsi were wounded by gunfire as they approached, according to Reuters. One witness informed the agency that he saw several people taken down by shotgun pellets, suffering from injuries.

An AFP Cairo correspondent is fleeing the scene, with one BBC journalist sustaining an injury.

As the demonstrators had approached, a small collective of men placed a poster of Morsi atop the barbed wire barrier closing off the military cordon. Protesters reportedly waved shoes at police -- a traditionally insulting gesture -- prior to the onslaught.

"We are receiving reports that some of the protesters fired back at Egyptian police," said RT's Paula Slier, based in Cairo.

Egypt's security sources are denying that any people were killed following the clashes, announcing on state radio that there have been no deaths in the barrage of bullets.

An army spokesperson said that only blank rounds and teargas were used against the protesters, according to Reuters. It is unclear whether security forces were present at the scene who did not belong to the army. A media spokesperson for the Muslim Brotherhood, Gehad El-Haddad, said that any shootings had been at the hands of the neighboring military police.

Thousands of Morsi supporters have been gathering across several locations in Cairo in response to Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi's ousting by the on Wednesday following anti-government protests.

The groups have been assembling in response to a call by the alliance of Islamist parties -- which included Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood, for peaceful protests to condemn the ousting.

"There certainly is a feeling that history is repeating itself -- you need to remember that it was just two years ago that the former Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak was overthrown. What people here on the streets are saying is we're witnessing another overthrow, and the point is being made is that this was a democratically elected president," said Slier.

In Cairo, supporters took to the streets at Cairo University and Istiqama Mosque in nearby Giza Square, as well as in the Cairo district of Heliopolis, not far from the Ittihadiya presidential palace in addition to the Nasr City district action.

The capital hasn't been the sole location of the demonstrations: Unrest swept the northern cities of Alexandia and Beheira following Friday afternoon prayers.

[Bombay]

Didn't think the army used shotguns?

[Chocolate Eclair]

I somehow am beginning to wonder about the past government and their supporters, making threats, talking about martyrdom, talking about vengeance etc. I could never think of these things being a part of the modern educated world, and the way forward.

[Hafiz]

Nothing like getting the badies. You would think that the 50 civilians and 2 army killed in Cairo a day or so ago would lead to an investigation of army actions. Not so. 650 civilians have been detained for trying to storm the barracks of the Republican Guard. Obviously a serious crime. There are no reports of detentions of army so I guess either there are to be no investigations of the killings or the theory is that the brothers killed themselves.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ister.html

[LovelyLadyLux]

The phrase 'suicide via cop' holds meaning to me and 'suicide via Republican Guard' comes to mind and NO there probably never will be a proper investigation. I highly doubt if I and a few hundred of my best buds decided to storm the Pentagon or other equivalent Military holding the response would be much different.

[Who2]

Didn't think the army used shotguns?

Shotguns are common weapons in military use, particularly for special purposes. Shotguns are found aboard Naval vessels for shipboard security, because the weapon is very effective at close range as a way of repelling enemy boarding parties. In a naval setting, stainless steel shotguns are often used, because regular steel is more prone to corrosion in the marine environment. Shotguns are also used by military police units. U.S. Marines have used shotguns since their inception at the squad level, often in the hands of NCOs, while the U.S. Army often issued them to a squad's point man. Shotguns were modified for and used in the trench warfare of WWI, in the jungle combat of WWII and Vietnam and are being used today in Iraq, being popular with soldiers and Marines in urban combat environments. Some U.S. units in Iraq use shotguns with special frangible breaching rounds to blow the locks off doors when they are making a surprise entry into a dwelling.
ref: Wiki.

These shotguns are all available in Cairo, can't beat a shotgun for PP, I used to have a SPAS 12, it's that 'pump action sound that does the business...

[Who2]

I remember being in a bank robbery once and this copper said to me "what sort of gun was it ? now I know guns, but all I saw was this big black tunnel pointing at me,
So a shotgun has that f***me feel, sound and look about it, plus easy to shorten...cool:

[Bombay]

I remember being in a bank robbery once and this copper said to me "what sort of gun was it ? now I know guns, but all I saw was this big black tunnel pointing at me,
So a shotgun has that f***me feel, sound and look about it, plus easy to shorten...cool:

I had to read that twice without a drink Who thought you were the bank robber and were living in a "Panic Room" on the WB

[LovelyLadyLux]

Darn hard to miss with a shotgun. Blow a hole through most anything as big as a barn door. A shotgun can make an excellent marksman out of almost anybody.

[Hafiz]

Who2 is right.

Shotguns using solid shot might be fatal at 60 to 80 meters but have a minimal spread (except maybe if the crowd were close together). Higher gauge bullets have more spread but less lethality. So called bird or grape shot, say at 60 meters, hardly ever kills but has a wide spread. Police suppressing a crowd would tend to use grape or bird shot bullets and, if so, there would be lots of relatively minor injuries and it would be a bit like shooting fish in a barrel.

What doesn't make sense is that shotguns rarely have more than five shells in the magazine and reloading is very slow. Bit difficult if you face thousands.

All reports agree that the incident occurred during prayers. No reports state that the army/police tried first to use tear gas or that they used rubber bullets. The best that the army can advance to back their actions is that a small group tried to attack the building. No report from the police states that they used grape or bird shot (which you would say if you were trying to minimize your responsibility by acting responsibility). Anyone in the crowd would have heard the distinctive and very loud sound of shotguns and known that the only course was to run away.

If I had a shotgun and was firing into a crown I would need to be a butcher to go through with it - or be really badly trained and have panicked.

Neither sides story makes sense.

[BBLUX]

Modern automatic shotguns can used by security forces for crowd control. These are a world away from the pump action shotgun you are thinking of. They have drum or long magazines which carry far more cartridges and can be changed as quickly as other automatic weapons.

These are fearsome weapons for crowd control but by the nature of design carry heavy, lethal load at close proximity. Not something to go up against.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_shotgun

[Hafiz]

'Thanks' for the awful information but it must be very hard to get police or army to fire on their own people at such close range and there must be only a limited number of times you can get them to do it before they revolt - or at least one hopes so.

[Hafiz]

The initial reports of 3 dead have grown to over 50 civilians and 2 or so army/police. In the article at the head of this post the army initially denied there were any killings at all and that, in any event, they used non-lethal force including 'blank rounds', whatever they are. That was wide of the truth and, as the toll increased, the army blamed the brotherhood for the killings including the killing of themselves. Reuters now says it was the army and that they used army sharp shooters to do the killing of civilians:

"The authorities say the Brotherhood provoked that violence by attacking its soldiers; the Brotherhood says its partisans were peacefully praying. However (as) the incident began, video footage showed snipers in uniform firing from rooftops at the crowd. Rights groups say troops used unnecessary force.

The authorities deny using disproportionate force or mistreating prisoners."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/ ... L620130718

Wonder whether the 2 army killed at the same time were victims of 'friendly fire'?

If true, this story gives you a picture of how ruthless the army are. They are also unashamed liars.

[LivinginLuxor]

Here's an extensively researched article from today's Guardian on the shootings, clearly 'proving' that the army fired first!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interac ... full-story

[Hafiz]

The Guardian story is remarkably thorough in contrast to (in the words of the Guardian) '..a striking absence of critical reporting on it by Egyptian state and independent media, while pro-Brotherhood TV channels have been shut down".

The BBC World Service have interviewed the Guardian journalist and accept his views so I suppose that means 3 international media saying the same thing whilst the locals, who complained about censorship for the last year, stay silent on a issue rather bigger than, say, the silencing of opera and ballet in Cairo which so enraged al Ahram a month ago.