A 5 minute summary...

[Helsx]

I found this very moving. I think we are all praying things improve for Egypt and her people.....Soon

phpBB [video]

[LovelyLadyLux]

Excellent synopsis.

[Remus]

Thanks for that, Hels. Very effective, with its finger on the Egyptian pulse.

And it shows not 'secularists' but ordinary Egyptian Muslims who have just had enough.

[Hafiz]

Biased selective and just plain wrong.

Just one example of its untruths: It states that the constitution was forced on the Egyptian people by Morsi. The whole world, but not the maker of this emotive bit of drivel, knows that a clear majority of Egyptians voted for the constitution. A five second google will produce a range of views about how good it is with local views more negative than those famous international bodies.

Even blind freddy could work out who paid for this unhelpful bit of hysteria. Their motives are equally clear and cynical.

If one was praying for a better future for Egypt, that future should exclude biased, emotive and untruthful 'journalism' written to advance self interest and to frighten the timid punters.

[Remus]

I think many millions of Egyptians living in Egypt would disagree with you, Hafiz, and would echo what is being said here.

[LivinginLuxor]

"Emotional drivel" - no way! Do you think for one moment the people who were speaking were speaking drivel, or decrying the conditions that they have to endure daily? Do you think that 'a clear majority' voted for the constitution, given the high illiteracy rate here? Yes, it did get passed, but surely many voted for it in the hope that any constitution was better than none. The revolution gave the people hope for better times, and that hope seems to have been destroyed by the daily struggles they have to endure. The sheer ineptness of the present government seems to defy all logic - in any other republic such a president would be removed by impeachment but here there is no parliament to impeach him, forcing new presidential elections.

[Who2]

We all err, did we not expect such high things from Tony Bliar, problem is we should know better, Egyptians first election easy to make a mistake has they had little choice. But if he and his party make bad decisions for the Country expect the worse to happen, as Blair never stood down neither will Morsi.........

[LovelyLadyLux]

Biased selective and just plain wrong.

Just one example of its untruths: It states that the constitution was forced on the Egyptian people by Morsi. The whole world, but not the maker of this emotive bit of drivel, knows that a clear majority of Egyptians voted for the constitution. A five second google will produce a range of views about how good it is with local views more negative than those famous international bodies.

Even blind freddy could work out who paid for this unhelpful bit of hysteria. Their motives are equally clear and cynical.

If one was praying for a better future for Egypt, that future should exclude biased, emotive and untruthful 'journalism' written to advance self interest and to frighten the timid punters.

I dunno where you're coming from Hafiz but this thread started by Helsx was a perfectly legitimate post that reflects a viewpoint. It is NOTHING as YOU say. You obviously watched it but YOUR RESPONSE is blunt and plain offensive and I really question your own motivation in responding this way.

Could it be you see yourself - as your own Moniker on here implies - Allah Hafiz? You see yourself as the Great Protector?advocate of the MB? The true truth about Islam? Some of your other previoius posts have been prompting and wanting posters to identify good things the MB are doing and anytime any of the Expats do give the WORD on THE STREET (reference your response to the posts on crime in Luxor) you're bashing them and imply they don't know their own city!!

Sure your posts are using them thar BIG WORDS and you're talking from the perspective of a Poli Sci student but YOU ARE COMING FROM QUITE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON HERE - AREN'T YOU?.........WHERE you COMING FROM HAFIZ? What is your REASON for bashing this thread as strongly as you did? It IS very reflective of the feelings of Egyptian people and YOUR RESPONSE is over the top response-wise in being critical.

I see many of your posts as carrying an agenda with a political slant. You're not relating on a people to people level and do seem to be pushing an agenda........

[Hafiz]

Its drivel because its entirely negative, its extreme and it contains untruths. Its essentially propaganda in a very emotional package and the type of thing a democracy should reject and fear. Only people with black and white views would make it or be drawn into it and black and white thinking is close to the fundamentalism the makers of the video would oppose in all other cases except themselves.

The Egyptian people have recently voted for the constitution and president they have and they will soon have the opportunity to vote for a new Parliament. If he is impeachable it can be done then. Impeaching him with demonstrations or petitions is not legal.

Egyptians pulled down a dictatorship and replaced it with a democracy with rules and a voting box. If people want to change those rules and discard the results of the voting box then they should say so and explain how this is democratic. If they don't like the voting results then go out and get votes by telling people why they should vote for them.

If some Egyptians were illiterate then it didn't prevent them from voting and apparently many did. Lots of recent chances to vote and in all cases to date the vote has gone the same "way". If people don't like the 'way' then do something practical and positive to win votes for the other 'side'.

Untrue and highly emotional attacks at a volatile time in Egypt do little to help the situation and this video and many other materials are remarkable for including no ideas on alternatives or a positive way forward. If they want a vote against Morsi then what is it that they are offering as an alternative and are they doing the hard and unhysterical work to build the machinery to get the votes across Egypt.

Negative and emotional advertising in western countries would be attacked for what it is, negative scare mongering offering nothing but fear.

Morsi's been a poor president but only a fool, or the maker of the video, would blame a 1 year president for all that is currently wrong in Egypt. People or Youtube makers who say he has done nothing good should be judged extremists with the purpose of stirring up trouble rather than getting votes in the normal way.

If you support the maker of this video you might support another from the same source which includes, in the first frame, a skull and the Star of David together with Islamist symbols. I assume their none-too-subtle point is that the brothers are on about death and Zionism which would be another unhelpful hysterical negative contribution but maybe one that gets support from people who think that ratcheting up emotions in Egypt is a way to solve problems.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Morsi100Days

[Remus]

Hafiz: Impeaching him with demonstrations or petitions is not legal.'

Surprising, then, that there were not a few million arrests across the country last night.

I am trying hard to understand your stance on Egypt and the demonstrators and what seems
to so many of the population an incompetent administration.

[LovelyLadyLux]

I'm with you on this one Remus. I've been mulling Hafiz' posts (this and other threads) and while written well they are carrying IMO his own political agenda.

[Hafiz]

Its after they event but hell why not?

Removal by these methods is not legal: that is, it is not provided for under the (recently approved) constitution. Methods for his removal are set out in that constitution. They do not include petitions or demonstrations which which I did not say were illegal. What I said in a previous post was not semantics but an important fact.

Demonstrating is not illegal and therefore not a crime. The previous government does not seem to have treated it as a crime because I have heard of no reports of any arrests in the past few days of demonstrators going about their lawful protest.

As a democrat, I believe in the ballot box and the rules of the democratic game. I feel no need to apologize for any of this nor is there any hidden agenda in this. Given I believe in democracy; what do others believe in? You can't be a "but" democrat: 'Democracy is OK but an occasional coup is necessary' that's the Pakistan, Nigeria, Algeria etc. and it leads to disaster. There is no 'time out' in a democracy.

As a democrat, my agenda is exactly that and along with others I believe Morsi has been given insufficient time, has been blocked by all the machinery of government, particularly the courts, and has been rebuffed at every stage by the secularists who refuse to co-operate. He has also made many mistakes and is an unimpressive person with a worse PM but that's not enough and, anyway, his legitimacy was to be tested in the next few months in the Parliamentary elections.

Moving on a bit, who thinks the army is the answer: they have run the country for 60 years, More than enough time to get it right - maybe they need a few more years with another puppet.

You know that things are going bad when that butcher Assad welcomes the new Egyptian junta.

[Bombay]

Perhaps if you were in Egypt not Australia you may have a different view.

14% of eligible voters is not the "clear majority of Egyptians voted for the constitution"
you state.

Gerrymandering, bribery and intimidation are not free and fair elections.

[Hafiz]

Typically less than 50% of US voters turn out which means that you can (and some have) be elected with 25% or so.

My math on the second round of the Presidential election is that turnout was about the same as the US.

No international agency has said other than the Presidential election was 'reasonably fair'.

The turnout for the constitutional referendum was lower at about 33% with Egyptians voting 2 to 1 in favor of it.

If the latter vote was crooked then one reason might be that those paid to scrutinize the election, the judges, boycotted. It would be a bit rich for them to complain after the event - although that hasn't stopped them.

I have obviously misstated the voting results - instead of saying a clear majority I should have said a clear majority of those who voted.

After all the boycotts on voting, standing for election and scrutinizing at all the elections it is still true that no person other than Morsi had any mandate or legitimacy. Those who don't participate can not claim that the process they boycotted was made illegitimate by their non-participation. The same for the judges.

I'm sure I would have a different view if I lived in Egypt but I hope that (if I were an Egyptian) I would believe in democracy, try and support it, have a leery eye open for the army and view with suspicion those whose only policy was obstruction and boycott. I also hope that I would believe in the ballot box rather than demonstrations and the army guns.

Its now all academic anyway.

[LovelyLadyLux]

There is the theoretical realm, the perceived realm, the media realm and the down on the ground in my own backyard realm amongst others. What IS vs what should be or could be often worlds apart. Statistics are just that - stats that are open to mega manipulation so they really rarely tell the true story (unless one is in a lab and manipulating and charting ALL variables).

I'm not sure the average Egyptian on the street could articulate democracy. Really what is it anyway? The what it IS vs what it is NOT.

[biosceptic]

The underlying assumption with democracy is the acceptance of the outcome by the vast majority of the population of the outcome. In any democracy if a significant minority do not accept the outcome then democracy will fail. How do the leaders ensure acceptance? They look at their actions through the prism of their opponents view. This is the key mistake of Morsi and co. They acted from their own view pushed the envelope towards Sharia law and of course this was going to alienate significant portions of the population. The outcome after that was a forgone conclusion - even without the strain of economic collapse

[LivinginLuxor]

Biosceptic's last sentence almost seems to sum up the situation in Britain today - the party in power pursuing it's own agenda, alienating a significant proportion of it's people, is bound to see a reaction from those people. Democracy isn't just ticking a box once every 4 years!

[LovelyLadyLux]

What is the single most important feature of democracy that makes it work?