Does Religion always win over Politics?

Luxor has both Christian and Moslem communities and the politics of the Middle East are equally diverse. Air your views on the situation.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Dusak » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:49 am

Without the insects this planet, as we enjoy it, would not exist. So I like to think that my final contribution would be that further generations will be given the chance to enjoy it as much as I have.



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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:09 pm

Morning Scottish.

"No one forces religion down anyones throat"

LOL! That's up there with I love you and the cheques in the post!

That's an incredible statement.

Don't atheist's also follow their beliefs?

Yes of course and they are almost all based on facts supported with evidence not on what someone else from a pulpit tells them to believe or because of something in a book x number of thousand years old says.

Religion has an incredible influence in many societies including Britain. There are high ranking members of the church that sit in the house of lords with the power to block any laws, and they do.

We are now in a farcical situation where we may well have a law that allows same sex couples to legally marry but in order to protect the church there will be another law banning the church from having to carry them out.

So if a church did feel inclined to carry out a marriage they would be guilty of carrying out something which complied with the law!

Only the influence of religion could create such baffoonary.

Its illegal to discriminate against gays unless you are religious then suddenly they are not bigots they are just "excercising their faith"

So the answer is simple, if you want to be openly homophobic and sexist and get away with it then just let everyone know its because of your faith, that should do it, no questions asked.

Scottish, heaven may well be a nicer thought than ending up as a beetle and its your right to believe/hope for that, just like I hope for a lottery win, but it in no way makes it true or more likely because you believe it.

Faith, in my opinion, is, at best, a lazy, groundless thought generated aspiration which ignores the facts and lack of evidence and embraces the ridiculous.

At its worst its something far more dark and dangerous.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:38 pm

To believe, not to believe, to stand on principle, to totally waffle - ALL up to the individual. I think it becomes crazy making when we try and analyze what is best for us and everybody else and try to understand it all.

One day I could be totally firm and unbending on a principle. Next day my thoughts might go in another direction and what seemed rock solid fall on my sword important is totally dismissed. Depends on the day, my mood, where the old brain is going, morning newspaper, the bird on the electrical pole outside - AND I do think many people are like this. Generally you have a belief system and you follow a life path. I like to think most of us are open minded enough to enjoy and appreciate thoughts and comments and have changing views (albeit within a framework)

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Dusak » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:54 pm

I generally have no problem in people believing in God, under the banner of their choice. I as a person do not like religion because the first time I came into contact with it was at primary school and up to the age of 11 I had it crammed down my throat. You where constantly told that this person Jesus existed and his father, God, was the power and the glory. One that had to be obeyed. You would be damned if you didn't live by his rules. What a load of b******s I thought. Still do. Then in history classes you begin to see how many innocent people where slaughtered in Gods name because they happened to have a different opinion to theirs. You had the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and Northern Ireland, a great excuse to slaughter your Catholic or Protestant neighbors under the guise of political unrest. In the street that I spent my years from 6 up to fourteen or thereabouts, most on my side where C of E, the other side was predominately Catholic. It was just like Ireland, the center of the road was the dividing line. As a kid I could never understand why only certain kids went to the birthday and Christmas parties. It was to became obvious at a later date, you where a non Catholic so you became automatically excluded. A child can not understand this, but they never forget it ether.

When I used to meet up with friends for a drink many years ago, we used to visit a club. The drinks were well priced, it was comfortable the slot machines paid out club prizes against the lower ones public houses where limited to. This club was in the vaults of the local and very famous cathedral. This had operated for many years and the only catch was that at eight every night the placed stopped serving for the delivery of a five minute pryer. So I only went in at eight thirty. This club generated many thousands of profit that went towards the upkeep of the Cathedral and helped needy causes locally. A new head honcho was appointed and the first thing he did was close the club as he was against the demon drink. So many people suffered at that loss of income. Another load of b******s.

You get the arguments within the churches that no females are to be allowed to do this that or the other, and yet according to the head man, all are created equal. Another load of b******s. Then of course there is the countless incidents of abuse. The followers of the Catholic church may comment and publicly denounce them, but still stay true to the faith. Why? If that where me I'd be ripping up my membership card and joining the other side. And, like my post above, everything can be forgiven, except contraception or abortion. Another load of b******s. But one of the biggest load of b******s is the constant arguments concerning the Turin Shroud. Bit of cloth with an impression on it caused by sweat. They do tests on it in the eighty's I think, and with carbon dating they conclude that it is a fake by several hundred years. And yet that test is accepted world wide to give us information concerning timelines for dinosaurs and fossilized trees and such like. No, the church cries out, the tests are wrong, this is the image of JC. Your science is wrong, ours is right. The word of God, in their eyes, really does mean the word of God with no acceptance or discussion allowed if it goes against them. Couple of years ago I fell asleep in the sun with a beach towel under me. When I finally woke up I stood and saw to my amazement that there was a near perfect sweat print of the outline of my bod. One wash and it was gone. Why would Jesus or Mary decide it would be conclusive evidence of their existence to place their image inside an apple or tomato or on glass or on a crisp. It would, for me, be a bit more persuasive if someone sliced open a dried dog turd and discovered the same. But then again, who would want to slice open a dried dog turd in the first place.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:52 pm

Z and D.
At no time have I ever said that I agree with ALL the teachings of my religion.
As human beings we have the gift of choice and free will and it is this that most of us use to determine what we want to believe in.
It's very narrow minded to suggest that someone who is openly homophobic and sexist is "getting away with it"because of their faith.
No,they're getting away with it because they are intolerant and ignorant and usually so stuck in their ways that no-one questions them about it!
Like you,I'm always amazed that religion (especially other peoples)seems to generate such a hot debate!
As for forcing religion down other peoples throats...what religions are you specifically targetting with that statement?
Would you object to paganism?Do your children have fun at Halloween?Do you think that the veil between the mortal and ethereal world is thinner then than at any other time of the year?
Do you believe in "white magic?"Spells,divination,etc.Covens also have a high priest and priestess
There's no point stating that you see everything to do with faith and religion as ********...when what you actually mean is that you are picking and choosing what ones not to like or agree with!
How many argue that children should all go to the one school?
Well,ok.But how many say "ok,that's great,we'll send them all to Catholic school!"
And how many people in relationships don't agree with a marriage certificate because "a piece of paper won't change anything!"
If that piece of paper won't change things...then why not go ahead and get it?After all if nothing,s going to change,there's no reason NOT to have it!
Still agree though that it does make for some good debate,lol.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by BENNU » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:54 pm

Dusak wrote:You get the arguments within the churches that no females are to be allowed to do this that or the other, and yet according to the head man, all are created equal. Another load of b******s.

Losing my religion for equality…by Jimmy Carter


http://www.womenspress-slo.org/?p=11440

Women and girls have been discriminated against for too long in a twisted interpretation of the word of God.


I HAVE been a practicing Christian all my life and a deacon and Bible teacher for many years. My faith is a source of strength and comfort to me, as religious beliefs are to hundreds of millions of people around the world. So my decision to sever my ties with the Southern Baptist Convention, after six decades, was painful and difficult. It was, however, an unavoidable decision when the convention’s leaders, quoting a few carefully selected Bible verses and claiming that Eve was created second to Adam and was responsible for original sin, ordained that women must be “subservient” to their husbands and prohibited from serving as deacons, pastors or chaplains in the military service.

This view that women are somehow inferior to men is not restricted to one religion or belief. Women are prevented from playing a full and equal role in many faiths. Nor, tragically, does its influence stop at the walls of the church, mosque, synagogue or temple. This discrimination, unjustifiably attributed to a Higher Authority, has provided a reason or excuse for the deprivation of women’s equal rights across the world for centuries.

At its most repugnant, the belief that women must be subjugated to the wishes of men excuses slavery, violence, forced prostitution, genital mutilation and national laws that omit rape as a crime. But it also costs many millions of girls and women control over their own bodies and lives, and continues to deny them fair access to education, health, employment and influence within their own communities.

The impact of these religious beliefs touches every aspect of our lives. They help explain why in many countries boys are educated before girls; why girls are told when and whom they must marry; and why many face enormous and unacceptable risks in pregnancy and childbirth because their basic health needs are not met.

In some Islamic nations, women are restricted in their movements, punished for permitting the exposure of an arm or ankle, deprived of education, prohibited from driving a car or competing with men for a job. If a woman is raped, she is often most severely punished as the guilty party in the crime.

The same discriminatory thinking lies behind the continuing gender gap in pay and why there are still so few women in office in the West. The root of this prejudice lies deep in our histories, but its impact is felt every day. It is not women and girls alone who suffer. It damages all of us. The evidence shows that investing in women and girls delivers major benefits for society. An educated woman has healthier children. She is more likely to send them to school. She earns more and invests what she earns in her family.

It is simply self-defeating for any community to discriminate against half its population. We need to challenge these self-serving and outdated attitudes and practices - as we are seeing in Iran where women are at the forefront of the battle for democracy and freedom.

I understand, however, why many political leaders can be reluctant about stepping into this minefield. Religion, and tradition, are powerful and sensitive areas to challenge. But my fellow Elders and I, who come from many faiths and backgrounds, no longer need to worry about winning votes or avoiding controversy - and we are deeply committed to challenging injustice wherever we see it.

The Elders are an independent group of eminent global leaders, brought together by former South African president Nelson Mandela, who offer their influence and experience to support peace building, help address major causes of human suffering and promote the shared interests of humanity. We have decided to draw particular attention to the responsibility of religious and traditional leaders in ensuring equality and human rights and have recently published a statement that declares: “The justification of discrimination against women and girls on grounds of religion or tradition, as if it were prescribed by a Higher Authority, is unacceptable.”

We are calling on all leaders to challenge and change the harmful teachings and practices, no matter how ingrained, which justify discrimination against women. We ask, in particular, that leaders of all religions have the courage to acknowledge and emphasise the positive messages of dignity and equality that all the world’s major faiths share.

The carefully selected verses found in the Holy Scriptures to justify the superiority of men owe more to time and place - and the determination of male leaders to hold onto their influence - than eternal truths. Similar biblical excerpts could be found to support the approval of slavery and the timid acquiescence to oppressive rulers.


I am also familiar with vivid descriptions in the same Scriptures in which women are revered as pre-eminent leaders. During the years of the early Christian church women served as deacons, priests, bishops, apostles, teachers and prophets. It wasn’t until the fourth century that dominant Christian leaders, all men, twisted and distorted Holy Scriptures to perpetuate their ascendant positions within the religious hierarchy.

The truth is that male religious leaders have had - and still have - an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of other great religions - all of whom have called for proper and equitable treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to challenge these views.

OBSERVER

Jimmy Carter was president of the United States from 1977 to 1981.

Copyright © 2013 Fairfax Media
:gg:

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:18 pm

But that's Jimmy Carter's views Bennu!
Don't believe he's a member of Luxor4u or part of the discussion.
What are your own as a forum member?

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by BENNU » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:42 pm

Every other post on this forum seems to be an article, it is very rare that I post something that I did not take time to write myself. I just came across this after reading Dusak's post and found it relevant, so I logged back in and posted it as a comment. :roll:

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:40 pm

Scottish, i neglected to question you on your apparent contradiction.

If you remember, you made an amazing statement that no religions are forced down people's throat, you then prooceded to prove yourself wrong by stating there were only two in west Scotland that did that!

Still, i digress.

Ok, some points from your last post:

"It's very narrow minded to suggest that someone who is openly homophobic and sexist is "getting away with it"because of their faith.
No,they're getting away with it because they are intolerant and ignorant and usually so stuck in their ways that no-one questions them about it!"

Wrong.

They are not getting away with it because they are intollerant and ignorant, thats like saying a murderer gets away with it because they are evil.

Being intollerant and ignorant is the reason why they do it not the reason why they get away with it.

They get away with it by using their religious faith as an excuse and to the shame of the governments that accept it and actively create laws to allow them to a legal right to do it.

And shame on any members of any religion that object to it that remain members, to do so is to condone it.

Shame.

I have a close friend who is very religious, we had a debate about this disgusting discrimination and he says he does not subscibe to that part of the doctrine.

Well thats ok then!

Can i, on the same bases openly declare that im a Nazi? I dont subscribe to the Jew hating bit i just support their economic policies!

If your not part of the solution your part of the problem.

As dusak says, id rip my membership card up.

Its not narrow minded its plain fact.

What religions am i talking about?

Any that have the power or the ability to influence laws and education. If a pagan wants to visit Stonehenge at the solstice and dress in a cloak and dance around a fire then good luck to them.

Give them a seat in the house of lords and an intention to vote in a way that allows what they believe to be forced on the rest of us and thats when i start to object.

Faith schools, i wouldnt send my children to one.

Schools are places of learning not a springboard for fairy story telling.

Not sure the point your trying to make re marriage.

I find religion highly offensive, they are not the only bodies that can play the offence card.

Its time to push back, and its great news its began.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Dusak » Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:29 am

Although it may have seemed that I was speaking of particular religions ST, that was not the case as I hold this personal view towards all religions. In this ultra modern world, for me, they serve no purpose, and probably never have done. I have many friends that believe in this, that or whatever religion and they seem to get something out of it. I'm pleased for these people as they are my friends and I would never consider hurting their feelings just because they started to talk about it by telling them to shut up. What's Jimmy C got to do with the topic. Plenty if you think that it a good and valid point to mention, that's the purpose of a forum to bring other points into the discussion, not the ones that only interest an individual. I saw on the news this morning that a Christian church in Aberdeen is allowing the local Muslim's to use their church five times a day for their prayer as their mosque is to small for their members. This is a good thing to see in this day and age of religious discontent.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Hafiz » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:29 am

As far is the UK is concerned isn't politics the same as religion?

Isn't there a Church of England, Church of Scotland (not the Presbyterian), Church of Wales and Church of Northern Ireland all established by statute with most funded by arrangements set in law by politicians. Don't changes to the book of Common Prayer have to be passed by Parliament/the political Executive, aren't Bishops part of the parliament appointed and removed by the government to make laws, religious and secular, for all citizens. What type of bishops or religious lords do you think the politicians appoint - their political enemies? The state seems to win in most of this.

Isn't the head of state the Supreme Governor of the C of E and of at least the Church of Scotland, and aren't bishops appointed by the Cabinet and head of state. Doesn't all of the above apply to churches that almost no one goes to and wouldn't most civilized countries object to a head of state who promoted one religion over another. Indeed don't almost civilized country separate Church and state so that they don't get 'blended' and that where they are blended its politics which wins.

Is there a reason why those who attend the C of E are called the 'Conservative party at prayer'. Is this because most conservatives are Anglicans or most Anglicans are conservative? Does this mean that politics has won over religion?

How many other state have a head of state who is also head of a state regulated religion? Again, who wins?

What happens if a non believer, Muslim,or Jew PM advised the head of religion and state on the appointment, say, of an Archbishop of Canterbury ammenable to their views. Have the politicians won here?

Has there ever been another modern state which has prohibited a person for becoming head of state because he proposed to marry outside the state church. Did religion win here?

Which state church anoints the sovereign to rule in the name of god. (As an aside, in the coronation ceremony the Head of State is obscured for a time by a gold canopy as the politically appointed Archbishop calls down god to take actual physical possession of the sovereign). If she follows her oath then religion must win over mere man made politics. Was she ruling her church/state in the name of god during Mrs Thatcher government?

Wasn't the British head of state regarded as a holy vessel who could perform miracles such as the cure for scrofula. Didn't the British public show outrage when an Australian PM dared to touch the sacred head of states lower shoulder to usher her in the right direction. Isn't there a widespread view that the current UK head of state is appointed by God/the grace of God rather than by the Cabinet and the Act of Succession. In this case religion or a primitive magic version seems to win here.

Much of the above is a bit off point except to show that the blending of church and politics leads to a very messy situation but that, in the UK, the state and politics mostly always always win over religion.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by biosceptic » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:33 am

This is a long stretch of rhetorical questions. It would be a lot more convincing if the Head of State had more real power rather than being so constrained by the elected Government. As with all living political systems, change occurs over time, and sometimes archaic remanents of a former world remain for a long time when they have no real relevance.
Some probably won't change until the community is comfortable about moving on or some event precipitates change

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by BENNU » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:40 pm

Hafiz wrote:How many other state have a head of state who is also head of a state regulated religion? Again, who wins?

Which state church anoints the sovereign to rule in the name of god
I know one.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Scottishtourist » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:13 pm

What one is that Bennu?

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by BENNU » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:23 pm

Scottishtourist wrote:What one is that Bennu?
Denmark, Scottishtourist.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Bullet Magnet » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:57 am

Changes are not permanent, but CHANGE is...

//Random thought for the day// .. :cg
There's a time for everyone, if they only learn
That the twisting kaleidoscope moves us all in turn.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Chocolate Eclair » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:28 am

Insh Allah, Religion will always win.

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