Does Religion always win over Politics?

Luxor has both Christian and Moslem communities and the politics of the Middle East are equally diverse. Air your views on the situation.

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Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by DJKeefy » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:19 am

A member posted in one of his posts that "Religion always wins over Politics", could that be extended to Religion wins over anything?

In the paper yesterday a Salafist preacher Abdullah Abdel Hamid said:

"Locusts are a 'gift from God', and government officials who plan to get rid of them are against God."

Source: http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/66930.aspx

I remember about 7 years ago a women who bought a property on the banks of the nile, the son was not happy about his father selling the property, but it went through the courts without any problems, the women returned to her country for a month and when she returned there was 3 ceramic pots (for drinking water) built in a wall closure in her open garden (just set back from the path that runs along the nile) The son who's father had sold the property had built it, Lawyers was brought in and refused to take the case on to have the pots removed, The story was that the son had a dream and Allah had told him to build the pots there. The women decided to let him keep the pots there cause she did not want any trouble and said it would add a kind of decoration to the garden..


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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Bombay » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:47 am

I will try the "dream" method with my bank manager.
R

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Zooropa » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:29 pm

Im amazed there are no more comments Keefy.

But should i be amazed?

If this post were about politics/music/film/art/fashion/sport/your favourite colour then i suspect there would have been many varied posts.

But as its the "R" word people feel as if it would be wrong to question it.

Why?

Its probably another reason why its used in politics, because its rarely apposed and questioned.

"The women decided to let him keep the pots there cause she did not want any trouble and said it would add a kind of decoration to the garden.".

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by BENNU » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:06 pm

Zooropa wrote:If this post were about politics/music/film/art/fashion/sport/your favourite colour then i suspect there would have been many varied posts.

But as its the "R" word people feel as if it would be wrong to question it.

Why?
What took you so long to reply?

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Bullet Magnet » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:14 pm

My views on Politics and Religion are well known on this forum..

They are both Irrelevant... :cool:
There's a time for everyone, if they only learn
That the twisting kaleidoscope moves us all in turn.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Dusak » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:19 pm

I have very little time for ether politics or religion, both are powerful weapon's to control the masses and as we have seen, used incorrectly on too many occasions. At least with politics you know they exist as they are there used every day in every ones life providing us with hard evidence. But religion? Zero evidence to back up that it ever excised or any of the characters that where responsible for its creation. A story that got out of hand and now we are stuck with it. This is my possible version of events that may have helped created this work of fiction.

Some two thousand and odd years ago there was this chap sitting on his roof. He was sad as his brother had just passed. He was surrounded by his late brothers writing paraphernalia as he had worked as a stock-list maker by trade and a trade that his brother considered some what of a wast of time for such expensive products. He had considered writing a story, but could not think of a suitable topic as nothing ever happened in this one street village he called home. He lacked the imagination. Then a commotion drew his attention to the end of the street. He sighed as he noted who the owner of the voice was, a local from the next village named Herod, hated anything on two legs below the height of two feet. He was abusive and self opinionated. He was shouting at the new couple that had just arrived to make a home in the village. They were lolling under a tree.

''Jesus Adam, what have I told you about feeding your good wife Eave all those apples? Enough acid to kill a serpent.''

The silent observer watched as the braggart moved onto the next house, owned by two brothers Cain and Able. As usual Cane, being a lazy git lay sprawled out on his bed as his brother moved a pile of rocks. ''Jesus H Christ Cane, your a lazy excuse for a man letting your brother do all the hard work. Now get of your fat arse, pick up your bed and give him a lift.'' Herod moved onto the next home, all the time being observed from the roof.

This time he stopped an old woman and was heard to ask where he could get a large coin changed as he needed a calming drink to smooth his nerves. She pointed to a small ornate Temple like building and told him there are men in there that would accommodate him. He was seen to enter and some moments later three money changers came flying out of the doorway followed by Herod who was roaring at them. ''Try to cheat me by paying me short would you, begone from this village and don't come back.''

Herod had then stumbled into the wine sellers and ordered a glass of red. It had arrived and Herod had spat it out. ''Jesus, call this wine, its like gnats ****.'' The owner was heard to apologize profusely saying that it had been a bad year for a decent wine. Herod, for once in his life, took pity on the man. He drew a small bag from within his shirt. ''Just this once I'll show you a trick of the trade.'' Herod had emptied dried mixed fruit into the jug and twirled it round and left it for some ten minutes before pouring out two glasses. The wine shop owners eyes had lit up in surprise as he swallowed. '' My word, you've literally turned water into a fine wine with that mix.''

Herod moved on towards the Noah family, small holders with a couple of sheep, cows, goats and donkeys. Herod stood at the top of the slight dip in the ground that led onto Noah's land and home. He called down to Noah who was working at building a shed.
''I've said it before Noah and I'll say it again. The first year we have heavy rains your going to loose your house. If you take my advise you'll build a new one in the shape of a boat. You and the missus can live at one end and your animals at the other. When it rains your house will rise above it while every other bugger wallows in it.'' Herod, ignored, moved on.

Herod had stopped at another house, one belonging to the Hoards family from Babylon. A hard working family but simple to the point of not being able to construct a short sentence. Herod had nodded in greeting and saw that all the family of twenty where staring down at their dinner table at five loafs and a couple of fish. ''Whats the problem Jedediah, you look confused.''
''Well'', Jedediah had replied. '' There's twenty of us and I don't now how to share the food out equally.''
''No problem, let me show you how its done. The knack is that you always think in tens about anything that's important. You have five bread so you cut each one into four equal pieces, that gives you twenty, that's one each. Then you divide each fish into ten, that gives you a piece each. Simple. Tell you what, scratch what I've told you on that piece of flat stone over there, call them life's rules so you don't forget. Anyway, I'll have to go now as some bright spark set light to some dry bushes that need putting out and I'm going to use the dry river bed to cut across country. Make a change trying to jump the crossing stones when its in flood as half the time they're submerged so you look as if your walking on top of the thing.''

The man on the roof had found Herod's trip through the village interesting. Then he had an idea. What if he used his brothers legacy to produce a story of this mans exploits. People may find it interesting and informative considering the advise Herod had given freely. I'd just have to create a beginning, insert these story's and hunt down some more then go for a dramatic ending. Of course his book would need a hero with a memorable name. He didn't like Herod, so he would be a bad guy. Then he had remembered the name Herod had shouted out. Jesus. It sounded better than nothing so he stuck with that one. He thought of a title for his book and at first had chosen Believe In Beauty Love Endeavour. He soon realized this was to long a title, so decided to abbreviate it to the first letters. So he called it Bible. And just hoped that it would sell well.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Zooropa » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:15 pm

Bennu, i think Keefy was quoting me and so therefore i didnt want to jump in with my size nine's.

But i think its a good talking point and was surprised not many had commented.

I think Dusak's story is no less worthy than the one that has sold so many copies over the years!

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:17 pm

Coming back to the does religion always win over Politics question - I'd say most religion does win because religion - your faith based belief system whatever it may be is personally defined by the individual, is taught and learned from childhood and thus becomes ingrained in the psyche. If you don't follow your religious doctrination there is usually a burn in hell damnation clause going to apply to you too which can cause some people significant consternation. Now this is not to say that somebody can be raised a strict Catholic or Baptist and then can't break with the teachings however even while 'breaking' this means the individual has thought enough about what they are breaking from to know it is no longer for them and make the break. You can leave a political party without the fear of going to hell or being denied entry to heaven.

To me I see politics as tending to have broader group definitions and to me people as adults PICK the political group that most aligns with what they believe in and want to see happen in the world. I see adults making the decision to become political vs the decision to be religious. I think religion is more foisted onto people as children and they grow up within whichever religious doctrine their family believes in.

@ Zoorpa - I think if people talk in generalities about religion or politics the discussions go ok. I think it is when people start talking personally and touting a specific religion or political party that is when the problems commence.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Zooropa » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:36 pm

I agree Lady.

People quite often only think of middle eastern countries when it comes to religeoulsy motivated political movements but lets not forget there is a country in the west every bit as religeously motivated if not more than some middle/far eastern states.

The US has a constitution underpinning a secular system with the seperation of church and state yet many people on the outside are amazed to learn this given the influence religeon has on the system in the states.

Your chances of becoming president there if you are an athiest are zero.

The constitution is supposed to support that possibility.

Its well known than many US politicians overstate or even lie about their religeous credentials because they know full well that to not do so would deny them a ticket to the game.

George Bush Junior basically said that in removing Sadam he was "doing gods work".

If the founding fathers knew how the political system would turn out they would have been dismayed.

So in a country that has a constitution underpinning a secular system that also celebrates its system of democracy as being one of the best in the world has already lost by a country mile the politics versus religeon battle.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Zooropa » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:47 pm

Also, if you look at most guide books to Egypt they will tell you that its best not to state you are an athiest, belonging to any religeon they can understand and relate to but they would not understand if you stated you were athiest. The same goes for sexuality, whilst not technically a crime in Egypt ( this depends sometimes on your point of view, some say it is some say it isnt!) the authorities have been known to show little or no tolerance towards homosexual behaviour.

In most cases i would wager this is influenced by most religeon's views on any sexuality other than hetrosexualism.

And this was the advice under the last regime which was one of the most moderate religeous countries in the region!

Cant imagine the advice now is anything other than even more relevant under the new regime!

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:15 am

When Obama was running for President of the USA he wasn't vetted very well. It was found out that his Pastor was Jeremy Wright who has (ahem) extremely outspoken views. For awhile this nearly did in Obama and he soon had to get another church and FAST. And, interestingly enough he did.

The USA is very tolerant of religion - NOT! (with a capital N) You CAN be a practicing non-Christian in some areas of the country - ie. New York - big urban areas that come with big city traits where individualism can easily be lost AND where individuals can find strength in like numbers. To be a Muslim or even a person of colour in small town America can be extremely difficult as Americans (I believe) fear what they do not understand and they make no effort to understand anybody who is different. I'm WASP yet Canadian and on 9/11 "I" had to be removed from my place of work to safety cause I was not 'merican and being 'attacked' put coworkers who knew me into a frenzy as I was from a different place and it was possible MY country (Canada) had allowed the attackers into the USA to attack them! OMG talk about CRAZZZZZEEEEE times!!!

In Egypt 'yes' it is best to put down you are of a religion - i.e. Christian. Actually to be Christian means you believe in one God. To be Atheist isn't acceptable. HINDU means you believe in multiple Gods and this isn't taken too well by those followers of Islam.

None the less - to be anything other than heterosexual in the Caribbean can get you into trouble too. I go to Trinidad often and for sure you don't want to be a "Bullaman" (homosexual) as being a bullaman is something to be degraded, feared, possibly attacked - all IMO sad sad sad as the mindset is so closed. As a society this topic is not really even talked about. I know in Egypt homosexuality is there. It has to be but I think it is kept under wraps more because it is seen as being against Islam. Honestly I've never given homosexuality much thought - some people are, some aren't and I don't much think about this one way or another other than to recognize it just 'is' and the topic seems to come with lots of highly charged issues. I'm much more of a "live and let live" or "to each his own" with a shrug unless it pertains to me. I just hope everybody follows their own guiding star, can find their own happiness and fulfillment.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Dusak » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:27 am

Both politics and religion are of equal corruptness and each corrupts the other. Unfortunately we need politics but do we need religion? Religions are supposed to be the supreme and trusted words of God. To be found without fault and to be non judgmental towards our fellow man that follow the path of righteousness. Its amazing what religion can do when placed into certain hands. There is a state in America (I'm sorry as it was a couple of years ago when I watched the documentary concerning this point so I've forgotten which one) that allows the followers of a religion to harass and debase the friends and relatives of lost service personnel as they are attending their funerals. This is already a very stressful time for these folk and yet these pieces of ignorant filth, many in number, are there chanting that its good for them that they where killed in action and its of no loss to the nation. It was Gods bidding that they lost their lives. I believe in the freedom of speech but this type of action goes beyond measure. But, because this is a ''recognized'' religion the police force has no powers to intervene, they just have to watch and keep the peace.

Many years ago I remember being told a story about a Catholic Priest taking confession. His first 'repentance seeker' sat in the confessional and started to ask forgiveness.

''Forgive me Father for I have sinned. On Monday night as my wife and I sat reading our good book the neighbors dog started to bark loudly, as it does every night while we are attempting to read Gods words. So I placed some poison into a cooked sausage and threw it over the fence. The dog ate it and died.''

''My son, the Devil employs such creatures in its attempt to spoil the Holy words and His teachings. You fought on the side of God that night and won a small battle in His name. Three Hail Marys and the forgiveness of God.''

''That is not all Father. On Wednesday I saw that my other neighbors had, as they do each year, replaced their car with a new one. As you know Farther I work hard all week, feed my family, donate thirty percent of what is left into His glorious hand. So I crept into the darkness and scratched it all the way along both sides. He discovered it and started to use such profanities you wouldn't want to hear.''

''These people, my son, are agents of the Devil himself, awarding his followers with gifts in an attempt to sway His followers to transgress. You overcame two of this foul creatures most powerful weapons, greed and avarice. The love of God is far more powerful and can not be removed when firmly embedded within the heart of a believer. Recite the Lords prayer three times to strengthen your resolve followed by three Hail Marys.''

''There is another sin that I wish to confess to Father, the taking of human life. After Mass that I took here last night I decided to take up a collection box to gain contributions to aid the church. I decided to visit the local young boys club that we know needs so much of the churches support to keep them on the right track in life as they endeavour to gain their perfect positions in life. I was outside having been successful in my work, received much coin from the boys adult supporters. My tin was heavy with my gains. I was approached by a man that in whispered suggestions offered me terrible things. I lost control and beat his head to a pulp with my laden tin. I killed him. I was neither observed or heard as I returned home to my wife''

''That my son, was not a man, but the Devil himself and God had given you your final challenge in life. To do battle with the demon spawn itself. You succeeded where many of our brothers and sisters have failed. Be proud my son. Celebrate this victory. God rewarded your actions by placing His hand around you that night so non of the devils minions would witness the battle and guided you to the safety of your home. There is nothing to forgive.''

''That leaves just one small final act that I seek forgiveness for Father. When I returned home I found that my wife was already in bed, reading the good book. So I showered and joined her. I decided to tell her what I had done that night as the keeping of secrets is a sin in the eyes of God. We both became excited as I relayed what had happened and she too said I had been protected by His hand. We both became aroused and started to make love. As you know Father we have twelve children and my wife grows tiered with these difficult births, so I placed a condom onto Gods tool to save her further pain and discomfort.''

''Jesus holy Mary mother of Christ Paddy, you've committed the most heinousness of sins. To take the life of so many of Gods children, to trap and encapsulate them in what can only be described as a pressure cooker of rubber for the sake of gratification goes beyond forgiveness, past the point of redemption. There is nothing that I can offer you, your soul is damned for eternity. Go.''

And they say that the church teaches us the difference between right and wrong. That most sins can be forgiven. Politics give us laws to live by, offering no forgiveness towards those that digress from those laws. Its called being part of a fair and balanced society. Not a one sided one that offers protection only if you play be their rules.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Bullet Magnet » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:15 pm

Religion and Authority preaches fear, and fear is just an illusion.
We are born with 2 rational fears, the fear of falling and loud noises, both of which can be overcome in later life..

WE are eternal beings, so in reality what is the worst thing that can happen ? .. Death.. ? Give me a break... :cg

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:51 pm

Why does Islam & Christianity have so many followers who see it as the ONLY way and who are willing to lay down their lives in support of their beliefs?

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Scottishtourist » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm

I'm kinda on the fence with this one!
If we don't have faith and religion...then what else do we believe in?
What gives us focus in our everyday lives?
Have you ever heard the saying "once a Catholic,always a Catholic?"
This rings true in my profession and Catholicism is not the only religion where one seeks redemption before they meet their maker!
We deal with Rabbis,Imans,Priests and Ministers.
People of all creeds tend to go back to their roots when they are dying.They seek forgiveness,they seek to make amends...they are frightened of what the unknown journey into death will hold!
It's all very well saying that religion preaches fear,but if any of you have ever witnessed a dying person,then you will see that death is the biggest terror imaginable!It is not peaceful...it is painful,horrific,undignified...and these people are just looking for comfort and peace!
BM...we are not "eternal beings"...we are "glorious"beings!
And most people want to meet their maker with a clean soul,no matter their failings in this mortal life!
So yes..they meet their maker hoping that all their sins are forgiven.
Whilst some of us can agree that the "politics"of our churches are unreasonable...should we ever really condemn those who believe that their religion plays a major part in their life?
Politics give us nothing...we merely accept it's laws!
Religion,on the other hand,gives us the chance to question,reason,use our free will,common sense...and accept if we so desire.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Dusak » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:22 am

And because of those laws we benefit for the grater good. As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by LivinginLuxor » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:17 am

"Politics give us nothing...we merely accept it's laws!
Religion,on the other hand,gives us the chance to question,reason,use our free will,common sense...and accept if we so desire."

I'd reverse the two statements. Religion means that we have to merely accept its laws - if we are to be given 'eternal life'. But, in reality I would consider religion and politics to be totally interchangeable philosophies. Both need to control the behaviour of people, both need a strong power base to do that. The only difference I can see is that politics is localised to individual states, while most religions operate within many states, which sometimes creates a discord between 'church and state' (church being taken here as a catch-all word for religions).
I might agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong!
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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:23 am

Scottish, im surprised at you! Don't agree that death is the most terrifying thing imaginable, not as a hard and fast rule it isn't. You will find that religious people tend to fear death much more than an atheist.

Why? there off to an iternal life arnt they? with chocolate covered grapes and all things nice, jeez, id be bolting headlong to death if that's what was in store for me.

But its not true, its complete unsubstianciated rubbish.

If we don't have faith and religion then what else do we believe in?

Oh dear, if that's all you have, then in my view you have nothing but deluded thoughts that will never be fulfilled.

Im afraid, as I pointed out before, if we were discussing anything else with a complete lack of any credible evidence whatsoever we would have no compunction in calling it what it is:

make believe nonsense, and if we didn't call it that other people would call us bonkers!

But when its our religion we should not only refrain from suggesting its bonkers we also have to respect that view.

No sir, I see now reason to treat it differently.

"Listen friend, you owe me £500"

"Do I"

"Yes"

"Can you prove that?"

"No, and whats more I don't have to because its my "faith"

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? But that's exactly what religion gets away with,

every day.

"should we ever really condemn those who believe that their religion plays a major part in their life?"

Absolutely not, but that's the problem, they want it to play a major part in my life!

Name me a religion that does not exist to spread its word and influence.

If anyone wants to believe that an old man with a white beard created all in 6 days and the earth is only 6000 years old then fine.

But they should keep such nonsense to themselves and don't force feed it to children.

Especially mine.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Dusak » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:11 am

I believe in myself which is good enough to get me through each day. I know my eventual destination, within the collective bellies of various insects, so even in death, Dusak will continue to travel in many directions.

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Re: Does Religion always win over Politics?

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:27 am

Zooropa wrote:Scottish, im surprised at you! Don't agree that death is the most terrifying thing imaginable, not as a hard and fast rule it isn't. You will find that religious people tend to fear death much more than an atheist.

Why? there off to an iternal life arnt they? with chocolate covered grapes and all things nice, jeez, id be bolting headlong to death if that's what was in store for me.

But its not true, its complete unsubstianciated rubbish.

If we don't have faith and religion then what else do we believe in?

Oh dear, if that's all you have, then in my view you have nothing but deluded thoughts that will never be fulfilled.

Im afraid, as I pointed out before, if we were discussing anything else with a complete lack of any credible evidence whatsoever we would have no compunction in calling it what it is:

make believe nonsense, and if we didn't call it that other people would call us bonkers!

But when its our religion we should not only refrain from suggesting its bonkers we also have to respect that view.

No sir, I see now reason to treat it differently.

"Listen friend, you owe me £500"

"Do I"

"Yes"

"Can you prove that?"

"No, and whats more I don't have to because its my "faith"

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? But that's exactly what religion gets away with,

every day.

"should we ever really condemn those who believe that their religion plays a major part in their life?"

Absolutely not, but that's the problem, they want it to play a major part in my life!

Name me a religion that does not exist to spread its word and influence.

If anyone wants to believe that an old man with a white beard created all in 6 days and the earth is only 6000 years old then fine.

But they should keep such nonsense to themselves and don't force feed it to children.

Especially mine.
Morning Z.
My main point is that there is a big difference between "faith" and religion.
The whole concept of faith is "believing without seeing."No evidence needs to be produced.
We also seem to be only talking about mainstream religion here,i.e,Christianity,islam,judaism,etc, and the fact that some feel it is indoctrinated into others.
Do athiests not also follow their beliefs?In my view thats also akin to a religion!What about paganism?Why is this not being discussed as well?It's a recognised religion too.
Most of us live by a set of rules and guidelines. We may have faiings along the way,but there will come a point where even we question these failings and maybe reconsider our actions and any consequences they may have.
No one forces religion down anyone elses throat.Some of us believe in one thing and others choose to believe in something else,or nothing at all!
And strangely enough,in West of Scotland,the only religious groups who come round the doors trying to as you say "force feed"their religion to anyone are the Mormons and the Jehovahs Witnesses!
All others tend to stay a little more confined to their own churches and depend on the people coming to them.
Yes,I wholeheartedly believe that somewhere,sometime,I'll achieve a "heaven."It may not be a physical place..it may be a state of mind.I certainly wont have achieved it by being pious and devout in my "religion",but hopefully by having a little faith and by having tried to follow a set of values instilled in me...not indoctrinated,instilled!
It sure beats believing that my final destination is only going to be beetle and worm fodder!

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