Luxor Cachette

Luxor is ancient Thebes and has a fascinating past. Share your knowledge or ask your questions here.

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Who2
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Re: Luxor Cachette

Post by Who2 »

Back home I have a rather nice 50mm copy of Amenophis 111 (below)
done by old Abdel Hag PBHU from Karnak back in 1990 soon after the discovery.
14325
I often used to sit next to the cachette in the Sun Court,
drinking iced G&T from a thermos & smoking whilst observing tourists, evening was best... 8)
Ps: Abdel great carver, but he knew how to charge....


"The Salvation of Mankind lies in making everything the responsibility of All"
Sophocles.
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Re: Luxor Cachette

Post by FarleyFlavors »

newcastle wrote:My earler reading had given me the impression that the old ways and religious beliefs gradually retreated south until finally expiring in Aswan.
That's how I understand it too, but the final expiry (at Philae temple) didn't take place until a good 200 years later.
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Re: Luxor Cachette

Post by A-Four »

When we study Roman history, we can very often be precise about when certain peoples birth and death occurred . For instance Nero was born on 15th Dec 37A.D. and died 9th June 68A.D., but not only that we also learn a lot about their character, in Nero's case he stands out as a ruthless individual, especially when it comes to his dealings with the early Christians. However there is another Emperor who came along much later who's hatred for the Christians, made Nero sound like a saint,........the name was Gaius Aurelius Valerius Diocletianus (22nd Dec 244 to 3rd Dec 311).

Diocletian, like previous emperors were the direct owners of the land of Egypt, it was regarded as their own private property, though none were ever crowned king. Most of the emperors simply let life go on as it always had done under the Pharaohs, even with having its own currency, the drachma, which was minted in Alexandria, however, things suddenly changed under this new Emperor.

The currency was changed to that of the rest of the empire, plus a most unpopular Poll Tax was introduced, and as with any such new tax and especially a personnel one, unrest became fashionable, especially in Upper Egypt. The Emperor also had a great dislike for the so called Christians, who he saw as a threat to the Empire.

As I have written above, up until that time Rome did not interfere with internal affairs such as religion, but by that time Christanity had become firmly established in Upper Egypt, and the old religion was still popular with older conservative people, but was certainly on the wain, things were about to change.

In the latter part of his life Diocletian announced his divinity, he had become the son of Jupitor, and as was common such 'gods' demanded to be worshiped, the Christian of the Empire including Egypt refused. With regards Upper Egypt open rebellion broke out at the very same time as the poll tax was introduced, 297-298 A.D. In the same year Diocletian took an army and campaigned through Egypt to put down the rebellion. In Upper Egypt the so called St Catherine and the Thebian Legion of Christians, some seven thousand, were slaughtered by the Roman army. According to the modern day Coptic Authordox Church as many as 800,000 men women and children were martyred during the reign of this Emperor. It is for this reason that the original Coptic Church dated its calender from this Emperor, to remind those of this dreadful era. Even today there is a very old monastery near Essna dedicated to these martyrs.

For the reasons I have set out above, I can not accept that the fresco in question can be that of Diocletian, especially when this area became a church immeadiatly after the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. A modern interpretation would be that on Remembrance Sunday instead of the Cenotaph, the British establishment would gather around a huge statue of Adolf Hitler.

I now come to the Luxor Cashette, at this very same period in time 297-298 A.D., it was not just the Christians who were suffering, the old religion of Amoun and all the other gods of Egypt was a dying faith, being that it was now seen as a old state God, where Christianity was an all welcoming faith, even for the poorest. I believe that the old high priests saw these statues being so beautifully made were the actual living representation of that God on earth. They were collected up in Luxor Temple for safe keeping. While Diocletian was still campaigning and based we believe at Luxor, he took great interest in the statues, especially those in Amenhotep III temple in Karnack, where he had thirteen of the most finest Sphinx statues gathered up and transport to his future retirement palace in his home town of Split in modern Croatia, approx 1500 miles away. Had the all powerful emperor cast his eyes on any of the Luxor God statues, they would certainly have been carted off also.

Myself, I believe that the high priests in a desperate attempt carefully secretly buried these 'gods', in preparation for when the day came for a return to the true faith,.......which never came. Graffiti discovered in the old Isis Temple in Asswan proves that the faith of the mother goddess survived even upto the 6th Century.

P.S.- strange but truth, the mausoleum in which Diocletian's was placed at his palace in Split, quickly became the Cathederal of Split and called St Dominus, named after a local priest who was martyred during that emperors reign........the remains of the emperor are of course long since distorted.
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Re: Luxor Cachette

Post by newcastle »

Still in denial I see :)))

I suggest you read carefully the link provided by FF....https://www.academia.edu/3236954/The_Im ... r_at_Luxor

The evidence of the iconography is overwhelming and has been accepted by academia for 50 years....but if you feel you are better qualified , so be it.

I'm afraid clouding the issue with a load of irrelevant history gleaned from some old edition of Encyclopaedia Brttanica doesn't cut the mustard.

Incidentally, if the statues chosen for burial were outstanding examples of Egyptian workmanship, perhaps you can explain why, apparently, some were damaged prior to interment.
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Re: Luxor Cachette

Post by FarleyFlavors »

A-Four wrote:For the reasons I have set out above, I can not accept that the fresco in question can be that of Diocletian
For what reasons, exactly? All you've done is give a brief history of the period in question.
A-Four wrote:especially when this area became a church immeadiatly after the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D.
So is your argument that the frescos were painted by the Copts soon after Luxor temple became a church in 313 A.D.?

If so, the problem is - it didn't. It remained a Roman fortress for a further 200 years.
A-Four wrote:While Diocletian was still campaigning and based we believe at Luxor, he took great interest in the statues, especially those in Amenhotep III temple in Karnack, where he had thirteen of the most finest Sphinx statues gathered up and transport to his future retirement palace in his home town of Split in modern Croatia, approx 1500 miles away. Had the all powerful emperor cast his eyes on any of the Luxor God statues, they would certainly have been carted off also.
Diocletian wasn't interested in any religious statues other than sphinxes, which were the only ones he had shipped home. Of the 26 statues in the Luxor cachette, only two were intact sphinxes. So this doesn't explain why the other 24 were buried.
A-Four wrote:Myself, I believe that the high priests in a desperate attempt carefully secretly buried these 'gods', in preparation for when the day came for a return to the true faith,.......which never came.
That's entirely possible.

But that's a completely different argument to "they were hiding the statues from Diocletian".
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Re: Luxor Cachette

Post by A-Four »

Many thanks for your comments here FarleyFlavours, which are quite interesting and I look forward to giving a constructive reply during the coming week-end, will certainly be back in London by then.
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Re: Luxor Cachette

Post by A-Four »

I do thank you for your interest in this subject, and the questions you raise, though I shall answer in a matter that other general people will understand, for the sole purpose of inclusiveness of the whole forum.

The reason why I have given a brief history of the time in question is because Roman history and authority stretchers some 700 years in Egypt, and I am sure even under ancient times rules and regulations change.

Christianity was much more established in Egypt than it ever was in the rest of the Roman Empire. With regards the Empire as a whole, other than Egypt, the Western Christian Church would have us believe that it's faith became the status quo from 313 A.D., The answer to that is no, it simply became tolerated, it was in late 380's A.D., before Christianity became the State religion.

With regards to your idea that Luxor Temple was ever a Roman fortress can only be a joke, even in the time in question, yes, Roman administration officers were established within the precinct of the Temple, as can clearly be seen today on the West side, but it would be unthinkable to set up a fortress anywhere in the Temple. Fortresses had classic designs throughout the Empire. One thing the Romans never forgot was the Jewish Revolt,........you can never tax dead people,........its that simple.

Under the time of the Pharaohs, the farmer/land owners paid tax to the local Temple, they would be met by priests in the hyper-style hall where their taxes would be calculated and paid, not much more different than in the cloisters of the cathedrals of the once powerful rural England (e.g. Salisbury).

Who is to say what Diocletian was interested in ? What I am sure is that he took away perfect specimens of what he saw, admittedly, what we see today in the ancient city of Split are the remains of those wonderful statures, however, there is one, just of these statues that was buried in that city that is now in the Museum of Split, believe it or not it in remarkable good condition. Those that remain in situ in that city we have to understand that the once retirement palace of Diocletian now makes up half of the modern day city of Split.

It is my belief that, although Diocletian saw himself as a living God , the August, son of Jupiter, even he would have appreciated a true living image of a now defeated once living God of Egypt.
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Re: Luxor Cachette

Post by FarleyFlavors »

Shall we have a recap?

So far in this thread you've claimed the following:

- The frescos in Luxor temple are Christian, not Roman.
- Luxor temple became a Christian church in 313 A.D.
- Luxor temple was never turned into a Roman fortress.
- Diocletian had an interest in all Egyptian statuary, not just sphinxes, which is the reason for the Luxor cachette.

They say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but you've yet to provide a single cogent argument as to why you believe any of this guff.
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Re: Luxor Cachette

Post by newcastle »

The trouble with evidence is that it can be challenged.

Far better to assume you are right in the absence of evidence...........treaf your opinion as an act of faith :D
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