Graves and tombs.

[Scottishtourist]

Not too sure if this is correct place to post my view..so Horus can move it if he sees fit.

I realise that this is a Luxor forum and some people have a great knowledge of Egyptian history,tombs,temples,etc.

What "fired"that quest for knowledge?
Was it always just a thirst for knowledge re all things Egyptian..or did you have an interest in graveyards,inscriptions,past histories,etc.when you were living elsewhere?

The reason I ask is that I find graveyards both fascinating,educational..but somewhat depressing and bleak!No matter the person's achievements..they are dead now!So basically they should rest in peace without some idiot digging them up and examining them!
Why are some people so obsessed with disturbing the dead?When basically their tombs were (apparently)so well hidden and protected that this kinda thing shouldn't happen and it is considered desecration(by some!)

Why not just go and study tombstones in your own country?Why rape and pillage the graves of others long gone?For what?Educational knowledge?History?Or a "ghoulish"fascination and a "tourist"attraction,that will line the locals(and others)pockets?

Edit by Horus: This thread is fine under this particular heading ST

[Who2]

I became interested many years ago whilst studying at an esoteric school.
The graveyard question reminded me of a good friend and authoress Lorraine Evans...
Who does study them in your part of the world....
http://lorraineevans.blogspot.co.uk

[Dusak]

When near a graveyard, if on holiday or just I day out, I used to wander through, looking at the very old ones, wondering what they were like as a person and how their lives were lived. Morbid to some, but of an interest to me. As for digging remains up to investigate history, it has to be said that much has been learned and much corrected from past theories. I personally do not have much interest in the history of Egypt archeologically wise, but do enjoy looking at old photos and films from bygone times in relation to any country.

[Horus]

I’m with you there Dusak, I love wandering around old churchyards and trying to find the really old headstones, some have fascinating inscriptions. On one such forray around a very small cemetery in Dorset I came across this very unremarkable grave for such a famous person.

The resting place of ‘Laurence of Arabia’

[hatusu]

Anne Brontes grave is near to where I am staying at the moment, in St Mary's graveyard in Scarborough. Always, always there are fresh flowers on her grave, brought by people from all over the world.

[Horus]

Anne Brontes grave is near to where I am staying at the moment, in St Mary's graveyard in Scarborough. Always, always there are fresh flowers on her grave, brought by people from all over the world.

I was once in a lovely little harbour village of Laugharne on the Taf estuary in Dyfed, Wales and came across the grave of the poet Dylan Thomas (Under Milk Wood) and people actually leave half empty bottles of whiskey on his grave, a bit of a bummer saying he died from being an alcoholic.

[Who2]

A very small village is Laugharne with some very good pubs..

[newcastle]

So basically they should rest in peace without some idiot digging them up and examining them!

Why are some people so obsessed with disturbing the dead?When basically their tombs were (apparently)so well hidden and protected that this kinda thing shouldn't happen and it is considered desecration(by some!)

Why not just go and study tombstones in your own country?Why rape and pillage the graves of others long gone?For what?Educational knowledge?History?Or a "ghoulish"fascination and a "tourist"attraction,that will line the locals(and others)pockets?

A thinly disguised, rather ignorant, rant on a point you've raised before.

The vast majority of the Egyptian tombs were pillaged. and the bodies removed, centuries, in fact thousands of years, ago...one notable exception being Tutankhamun. Modern egyptologists study empty chambers....no more an affront to the dead than taking a rubbing off a tombstone in a modern cemetery.

[Dusak]

The discovery of this grave while on holiday was, I believe, the starting point in my interest in old graves. As a ten year old I saw the freshly cut flowers, as well as capturing a fleeting glimpse of a female stood watching me, but one that was not there after turning to tell my mother.

grave on Dartmoor
A LEGENDARY GRAVE

Dartmoor, the great expanse of granite moorland that lies at the heart of Devon in south-west England, has long been a favourite place for tourists and holidaymakers. Alongside the areas of natural beauty and the historic and prehistoric sites, one of the minor tourist attractions lies just to the north-west of Hound Tor and a few miles north of Widecombe-in-the-Moor. Like many such places on the moor, it seems to lie on a road that goes from nowhere in particular to nowhere in particular. The site is on the road that runs past the west side of Cripdon Down, at a point where a trackway branches off. It is marked as ‘Jay’s Grave’ on large-scale Ordnance Survey maps, at National Grid Reference SX732798.
Jay's Grave

Jay’s Grave

There are several graves on Dartmoor, and many stone markers and crosses, some of which are thought to mark graves, but the essence of Jay’s Grave is its anonymity. It is quite easy to drive past without even noticing it. The actual site is a small, very low mound on the roadside, with a kerb of small granite blocks. The most distinguishing feature are the flowers in a jam jar.

The legend about this site, which can be found in any number of recent books, is that this is the grave of a young woman called Kitty Jay. She was an orphan brought up in the poorhouse sometime in the early or mid-19th century. At an early age she was apprenticed as a general servant on a farm at Manaton, where she was seduced by a young farm labourer. When it became obvious that she was pregnant, her employers hounded her. In despair, she committed suicide. For this reason, she was denied burial in consecrated ground, but was buried instead in an unmarked grave at the spot now known as Jay’s Grave. Shortly afterwards, on moonlit nights, a dark figure could be seen kneeling over the grave with its face in its hands. This ghostly figure was interpreted as either that of Kitty Jay or more often the spirit of the man who had seduced and abandoned her and who was now condemned to watch over her grave. According to a more recent legend, the flowers on her grave are freshly cut daily and no-one knows who puts them there. Some people will tell you that they are brought by the local fairies or pixies, and this story is particularly popular with the sellers of pixie charms and concrete statues of pixies.
DIGGING DEEPER…

That, at least, is how the legend stands now, but once you dig deeper to try to find if it is based on any evidence, there is an immediate conflict of facts. There seems to have been a local tradition that the site was the grave of a suicide who may have been called Kitty Jay or Mary Jay. This story was already old and poorly remembered by the end of the 19th century. One of the earliest references to the story is in the first volume of Devon Notes and Queries, published in 1901:

Jay’s Grave … by the side of the Ashburton and Chagford road, where the Heytree and Hedge Barton Estates meet. A workman of mine, aged 74, informs us that about forty years ago, just before he came to Ashburton where he will have lived thirty-nine years next October, he was in the employ of Mr. James Bryant, of Hedge Barton, Manaton, when he remembers Jay’s Grave being opened, in which a young unmarried woman who had hung herself in Cannon Farm outbuildings, which is situated between Forder and Torhill, was said to have been buried, but no one then living at Manaton could remember the occurrence. The grave was opened by order of Mr. James Bryant in the presence of his son-in-law, Mr. J.W. Sparrow, M.R.C.S. Bones were found, examined, and declared to be those of a female. The skull was taken to Hedge Barton, but was afterwards placed with the bones in a box and re-interred in the old grave, a small mound raised with head and foot stones erected at either end. Such is the present appearance of the grave.’

This 1901 account of Jay’s Grave, which was repeated and embellished in several subsequent books about Dartmoor, appears to be the main published source of the story. It places the opening of the grave ‘about forty years’ earlier, which would be around 1860.
… AND FINDING AN OLD WOMAN

There is an earlier mention of what appears to be this same grave, where the suicide is described as an old woman by the name of Kay. It appeared in 1876 in Things Old and New Concerning the Parish of Widecombe-in-the-Moor and its Neighbourhood, which was edited by Robert Dymond FSA, a local antiquary. He moved from Exeter in 1869 to live at Dunstone Manor, Blackslade, near Widecombe, only a few miles from Jay’s Grave. As he took a keen interest in the locality, it is highly probable that he was reporting a story that was then current:

‘Regaining the line of the Chagford road,’ Dymond wrote, ‘we observe on our right the bold fortress-like mass of Houndtor … half way between the Tor and the road from which we have diverged, is another good specimen of the kistvaen [a prehistoric stone-lined burial], not covered, in this instance, by a cairn, but surrounded by a circle of once upright stones. A simple mound and unwrought headstone by the roadside marks the site of a more modern grave. A poor old woman, called Kay, having hung herself, was laid here under cross roads without the rites of Christian burial. There are many such graves of suicides hereabouts, and the country folk shudder as they pass the whisht [eerie or ghostly] spots by night.’

While the location of what was then a ‘modern grave’ is not given in sufficient detail to be absolutely certain it refers to Jay’s Grave, it does feel the same. Robert Dymond was also quoted as the source for a similar account by John Page that appeared in 1889 in An Exploration of Dartmoor and its Antiquities with Some Account of its Borders. In this book, Page talks about a kistvaen ‘between the Tor and the road to Chagford. Close to the wayside, where a moor road crosses the highway, is a suicide’s grave, that of an old woman named Kay, who hung herself. The rough headstone which marks the mound has no inscription. Following the road, we soon reach stony Hayne Down…’
REWRITING HISTORY

Of all these accounts, the only facts that we have are that bones were found and reburied at this site around 1860. As the bones were examined by someone with medical knowledge, it should be safe to assume that their identification as human is correct. Since we do not know how much of the skeleton survived, the opinion that they belonged to a young female is less reliable. We are left with the possibility that Jay’s Grave may actually be ‘Kay’s Grave’, if the early accounts originating from Robert Dymond are correct. The similarity between the names ‘Jay’ and ‘Kay’ and the stories of the two women are so striking that it is tempting to see a true tale about an old woman called Kay being ‘improved’ by changing her age and name. Certainly, from the point of view of tourists, the grave of a young woman betrayed and abandoned by her lover makes a more romantic tale than that of an old woman about whom we know nothing. This alone would account for the subsequent growth and embroidery of the story.

Or it may be that a real story about Kitty Jay has become attached to the grave of a woman with a similar name. With so little hard evidence, the opportunities for speculation are almost endless. The most popular version of the legend has now reached a wider audience after the local singer and songwriter, Seth Lakeman, had a hit with his song ‘Kitty Jay’ and his album of the same name.
Beatrice Chase

The grave of Beatrice Chase at Widecombe
FLOWER MYSTERY

As to the posies of fresh flowers on the grave, there is a partial explanation. It is widely believed that flowers were secretly placed there every day by Beatrice Chase. She was a writer and this was her pen name. Her real name was Olive Katharine Parr. She was born in Middlesex, but settled in Venton near Widecombe sometime in the early 1900s and often walked the surrounding moorland. She died in 1955 and is buried in Widecombe churchyard (see the picture above). Even while she was alive, her flowers on Jay’s Grave were often supplemented by flowers from tourists and passers-by, but after her death a person or persons unknown has continued the tradition. As well as flowers, tourists now leave coins on the small granite block that serves as a headstone.

[Scottishtourist]

I'll just ignore newcastle's comment.

Anyway..I enjoy visiting graveyards.I find them fascinating.I live near one and there are also old ones in the vicinity.Do you know that the biggest baby ever born is buried in churchyard within walking distance from my home?There's a nice headstone.and the baby's grave is somewhat a tourist attraction.

My late brother lived in Rothesay(Isle of Bute)across from a graveyard.There was also an old derelict church there.At least the neighbours were quiet!That churchyard and gravesite was full of history.It was wonderful to visit,dated back to 1700's.There were a "glut"of sailors graves there!Trading ships washed up on Isle of Bute shores and the seafarers were buried there.

There's also a stand alone grave there,fenced off and a wonderful tourist attraction.It's on a less familiar part of the island.The occupant was buried vertically(standing-up)because he refused to bow to the Marquis of Bute!

Such a small place,Scotland..but teeming with history!I did the graveyard tours in Edinburgh,also Mary King's close and the undercity streets.Fascinating!

It has never fuelled any enthusiasm to dig up the dead though,like Egyptology has!
So..let them.their memories,their treasures rest in peace.

[newcastle]

I'll just ignore newcastle's comment.

Pity....you might have learned something. But...ignorance is bliss to some, I suppose

Anyway..I enjoy visiting graveyards.I find them fascinating.

Beginning to sound a bit creepy now........

It has never fuelled any enthusiasm to dig up the dead though....

But you do participate in a spot of cannibalism & vampirism on a Sunday


Egyptology would be very boring if adherents were expecting to dig up bodies...it just doesn't happen


So..let them.their memories,their treasures rest in peace.

I'm sure the occupants of the churchyards YOU go trampling around in your clodhoppers feel the same way and, if they could, would be shouting from the depths.....

[Major Thom]

I used to live 2 miles away from Flora MacDonalds Grave, the Celtic Cross was mounted on sand to allow it to sway in the breeze, later it was supported by steel structures. The is a set of stones between Rannoch Moor and Glencoe they are hard to find you will need to get a local and a rowing boat, these are very old the inscriptions worn out, but they are thought to be the graves of the MacDonald Clan and Chieftain that were massacred by the Campbells under the order of King William who told the Cambells they must be put to the sword. The most beautiful thing I have seen is the memorial to the people killed in the Lochabie air crash, tended and kept pristine by the villagers.

[Scottishtourist]

Anyway..I enjoy visiting graveyards.I find them fascinating.

Beginning to sound a bit creepy now........

I sometimes think that the only people who are "creeped"out when visiting graveyards are those who have watched too many Hammer horror films.

I've got day off work and earlier today I attended the funaral of my 100 (yes,one hundred year old)auntie.She was the wife of my dad's oldest brotherShe was interred in same plot as her late husband and daughter in same cemetery where dad and mum are buried.

After her interrment,me,my brothers and dad's wife all went along to say "hello"to dadThe ground is all settled now,and he is in company of family,loved ones and old friends and acquaintances.

Might be a bit stupid (to some)having a conversation with a headstone!
But to some people,it's not.It's a "resting"place for them and a symbol of remembrance of a person who lived a full and rich life.And,who's to say that he doesn't hear our chit-chat with him.No-one's ever come back and confirmed it!So,maybe he does.
And,in years to come,he will be the "ancestor"of my own grandchildren,great-grandchildren,etc
That way..they'll know exactly where they came from.

[Horus]

ST, there is nothing wrong with talking to your departed relatives if it gives you some comfort. I have no religious beliefs, but very often talk to my late wife when walking alone with my dog, I tell her about the kids or grand kids and lots of other little things that have gone on in my life, I just hope that no one is actually watching me when I am doing it.

[newcastle]

All perfectly normal Horus.

Not much different to "thinking out loud" really.

It's when people sincerely believe that the subject of their discussion is actually listening that I begin to look around for the men in white coats.

I've often though HRH Prince Charles a little dotty for talking to plants....but there's actually evidence ( not tested rigorously and scientifically) that conversing with growing things might have some effect.

I've never heard the same claims for the dead....although there could be some placebo-effect benefit for the living person addressing them.

[Horus]

although there could be some therapeutic benefit for the living person addressing them.

I reckon that is exactly that Newcastle, it is just a means of relieving some of your feeling of loss, even when not believing in an imaginary friend it still gives a little comfort to vocalise your thoughts, but only in the middle of a fields or a wood with no one else watching.

[Dusak]

ST, there is nothing wrong with talking to your departed relatives if it gives you some comfort. I have no religious beliefs, but very often talk to my late wife when walking alone with my dog, I tell her about the kids or grand kids and lots of other little things that have gone on in my life, I just hope that no one is actually watching me when I am doing it.

When my farther eventually died I found myself talking to him for over a week after the flame was lit. ''Come on... where did you hide the ******* will!''

[Horus]

You may be joking Dusak, but I knew a bloke who went to a séance with his wife and the ‘medium’ contacted his father in law and when asked if he had a question for him he asked him where the key to the shed was. and he was serious.

[newcastle]

You hum it....I'll sing it....


Oh my darlin
knock three times on the ceiling if you want me
twice on the pipe if the answer is no
oh my sweetness
means you'll meet me in the hallway
twice on the pipe means you ain't gonna show

[newcastle]

You hum it....I'll sing it....


Oh my darlin
knock three times on the ceiling if you want me
twice on the pipe if the answer is no
oh my sweetness
means you'll meet me in the hallway
twice on the pipe means you ain't gonna show