Lectures Start Sunday 18th Dec

Luxor is ancient Thebes and has a fascinating past. Share your knowledge or ask your questions here.

Moderators: DJKeefy, 4u Network

User avatar
Who2
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 6984
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: Siddharthanagar
Has thanked: 1586 times
Been thanked: 5407 times
Gender:
Nepal

Post by Who2 »

"Quote: Tell me more about the cracks in MH and I will get some people on the case immediately.
'If necessary....
I have a couple of local builders that could pop round and throw some mud in the cracks and at only 5Ole per day......8)
PS: 'how goes the revolution?


"The Salvation of Mankind lies in making everything the responsibility of All"
Sophocles.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Post by Glyphdoctor »

I didn't mean to fix the damage, but to have someone there investigate what exactly is happening and confirm it and then to publicize it in the right places if indeed there has been damage. I've got people on the ground there that can do that and a team who can spread word to the archaeologist community and archaeological activists here in Egypt and media and press if necessary.

There is supposed to be a meeting today between USAID and Egyptian authorities concerning a similar project to be carried out at Edfu Temple. If the project at MH indeed has been damaging to the temple, then this new project needs to be stopped before it starts so as not to repeat such a mistake.

However, I work based on facts, not rumors, so the first step is to identify what exactly the damage is and confirm that it did indeed occur.

User avatar
Jane Akshar
Member
Member
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:37 am
Location: West Bank, Luxor, Egypt
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 60 times

Post by Jane Akshar »

I think Ray Johnson at Chicago House might have a word or two say if you did that glyph, being as they are working there Oct-Apr.

Any concerns about about Medinet Habu should be reported to him
Jane Akshar - mad about egyptology -sane otherwise ....... I think

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Post by Glyphdoctor »

I will do what is best for the preservation of the antiquities of this country, based on facts, once I have them, IF there is anything that needs to be done. If Ray has an opinion on that, he is free to express it. But I don't need his permission or blessing to do the right thing.

However, even if Medinet Habu is falling down, Ray has nothing to worry about when it comes to me, contrary to what you seem to imply. The dewatering project was the work of USAID, not Chicago House. Even if he was consulted on the project, he cannot be blamed for anything because he is not an engineer and therefore cannot be held responsible for any engineering failures that may have occurred.

By the way, if there is a problem at any archaeological site the person to whom it should be brought to the attention is the ministry employee responsible for said site or a higher up in the Ministry. They are ultimately responsible for the sites even after the archaeologists go home at the end of the season. Foreign missions do not own the sites. They are granted permission for a certain scope of work and that is their responsibility, but beyond that it is the ministry that is responsible.

In any case, I have a colleague in Luxor looking into the matter right now and once my colleague gets back to me we will decide together what the next step to take is, if any. And I am sure if my colleague has discovered anything serious they have already alerted the appropriate authorities locally. We are professionals, we know what we are doing, and we will act in a way that is best for the country and its monuments and its people.
Last edited by Glyphdoctor on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3858
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1612 times
Been thanked: 1723 times
Gender:
China

Post by A-Four »

The very best example to see these new faults at Habou Temple are;

As you go through the security system, you go enter what looks like a folly. which I suppose it is. It is infact a copy of a Syrian migdol or fortified gateway, however the upper floor walls are decorated with scenes of Ramesses lll, flirting (shall we say, and leave it at that.) with the ladies of his harem, the scenes are most unusual, and obviouslly for Pharaoh's pleasure. This is very interesting we can actually look at the images of the central charactors, who were involved in the Royal Harem Conspiracy, as the Judicial Papyrus,(Now in Turin) tells us. These rooms are no longer (since 20 year, and even then one paid very good bacsheesh to see them) able to be seen as a direct result of neglect.

As you come through the gateway, turn immeadiatly to the right, then walk to the Northern side, stand some distance away, then look to the South on to this Northern section of this gateway, up near the top and to your right as you stand facing South. Note the large lintel support, now note the huge crack through the stone block. This same point would be on any such building where sudden land sinkage would show greatest pressure, and certainly not at its base. Within this same area at various heights you will see simular stress cracks.

I have given a little information about this gateway, as I am sure many will not know of it detail, let alone seen it, but how important it is, and the need to restore this, and not to simply let it collapse, as we can all see with the great pylon in the Ramesseum. Over the past few years I have watched this simply collapse, and witnessed with my own eyes these great stone slabs, now smashed simply cartered away. Now there are approx only twenty slabs still remaining above the great door lintel level. As you look at the East face of the pylon, you will see that what remains is riddled with pressure cracks. Surely, am I the only one who can remember very clearly climbing the stairs of this great monument.

Now I read that they are to try and piece the great statue of Ram lll together, what is the point of that when Egypt can not even be bothered to look after what it already has.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Post by Glyphdoctor »

Thanks for the information. Will pass it on to my colleague.

I would like to correct you on one point though, if indeed the damage is due to the dewatering project, then I don't think the blame can be put on the Egyptian government not doing its job. USAID and their incompetent or overzealous engineers would have to take some responsiblity for it too, giving one more reason that foreign aid is bad for Egypt. However, I also would like to point out that at a workshop in 2007 during which the plans for the dewatering project were discussed, it was suggested that the possibility of adverse impact of the work needed to be determined before work progressed. I have not yet been able to determine whether such a report ever was produced and what its conclusions were. But the concerns were regarding the foundation. In reading the report on the preliminary meeting, a possible scenario that comes to mind is that the rapid withdraw of the water from beneath the temple could have led to a deterioration of the stone on the bottom of the foundation, and also possibly a contraction of the soil itself, which of course could lead to subsidence and the problems you suggest. According to Ray Johnson, once the dewatering project began, the level of the water in the sacred lake dropped 3 meters in 7 months.

As for piecing R2 together, those are plans that Christian Leblanc dreamed up 18 years ago, not the idea of the government.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3858
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1612 times
Been thanked: 1723 times
Gender:
China

Post by A-Four »

Glyphdoctor wrote:
As for piecing R2 together, those are plans that Christian Leblanc dreamed up 18 years ago, not the idea of the government.
No what I mean is that instead of Egypt allowing these institutes to search for new things all the time, time and money would be better spent on looking after what we already have, with special interest to the King's Valley.

User avatar
sue
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:36 pm
Location: England
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 192 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Post by sue »

The last time I saw Dr Don Ryan he was doing some mean Karaoke singing. He certainly can enjoy himself. I would love to be able to be at one of his lectures. He seems very good at what he does I am sure it will be enjoyable for all.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3858
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1612 times
Been thanked: 1723 times
Gender:
China

Post by A-Four »

BBLUX wrote:I believe we are visiting MH tomorrow with friends. We will have a look for new cracks now we are aware.
I do hope you see my detailed info before you go, and perhaps give your opinion on this tomorrow, a photo posted on here, if poss, would be great for Glyph to view.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Post by Glyphdoctor »

A-Four wrote:
Glyphdoctor wrote:
As for piecing R2 together, those are plans that Christian Leblanc dreamed up 18 years ago, not the idea of the government.
No what I mean is that instead of Egypt allowing these institutes to search for new things all the time, time and money would be better spent on looking after what we already have, with special interest to the King's Valley.
That is a very good point...As for the KV, I have a feeling no one is heeding your advice at the moment.

User avatar
BBLUX
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7135
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:17 pm
Location: Winter in West Bank, Luxor and La Vienne, France in Summer
Has thanked: 136 times
Been thanked: 577 times
Gender:
France

Post by BBLUX »

A-Four, your description is dowloaded to take with us.
Camera will also be in action.
Image

Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.

User avatar
LivinginLuxor
Top Member
Top Member
Posts: 991
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:50 am
Location: Luxor, Egypt
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 546 times
Gender:
Egypt

Post by LivinginLuxor »

I'll go take a look today and post some photos if I can follow your directions - you are talking about the Migdol gate I presume.
I might agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong!
Stan

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Post by Glyphdoctor »

This is a photo of the wall in question BEFORE any dewatering work. If I understand A4's description correctly, there appears to have already been a crack.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... igdol6.JPG

User avatar
Clandestino
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:50 am
Location: Hungary
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 15 times

Post by Clandestino »

Incompetent engineers :lol: , i just brace my belly and laugh!
Just show me somebody who will be able to control temperature, humidity, wind, ground-water level by free-standing monuments.
By an object shown on display in a glass case, damages caused by such as circumstances are easily to prolonge and fighting again.

I'm a black-and-white thinker so i think, only monuments they remained under the soil (may discovered, recorded and re-covered) could survive. They were been built among different climatic circumstances and agricultural techniques as like they're suffering form now, they survived thousands of years and look, just inbetween a couple of hundreds, they suffered much more as before during thousands.

Egypt and the scientist should be happy about investors because any ideas or projects will be irreal without their support. I doesn't think, any investor's attitude could be - 'I give the money-i conduct!' This is not a case of the rich egyptomanwho gives money for an excavation and then the project should run by his taste! Foreign nations and concerns gives their money, energy and technic for saving not their OWN monuments (ok, they're the part of the communal human heritage), they only spend money and their only income can be a tribute or getting a good reference.

Aging does his job well while we hopelessly try to find the scapegoat...

C
"Qui multum peregrinatur, raro sanctifcatur..."
(Homer)

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3858
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1612 times
Been thanked: 1723 times
Gender:
China

Post by A-Four »

....What has happened to our L4u agents.

User avatar
BBLUX
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7135
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:17 pm
Location: Winter in West Bank, Luxor and La Vienne, France in Summer
Has thanked: 136 times
Been thanked: 577 times
Gender:
France

Post by BBLUX »

I have to say that I took loads of photographs and have examined them this evening comparing them with the pre project images and all the cracks I saw were present in both sets. However, there is definite evidence of recent crack formation and movement in the perimeter walls adjacent to the now defunct road.
Image

Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.

User avatar
LivinginLuxor
Top Member
Top Member
Posts: 991
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:50 am
Location: Luxor, Egypt
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 546 times
Gender:
Egypt

Post by LivinginLuxor »

Like Barry, I took several photos and there were eroded cracks to be seen as well as newer ones.

Here's some examples

Image

The Sacred Lake, then and now.

Image

The lintel that Glyph posted

Image

The gap between the pylon and sidewall of the Ptolomeic temple. Note the movement gauge which is still centred

Image

If this is not an ancient gap, maybe the state of the foundations here could explain it.

Image

Image

New(ish) cracks in the stones at the north side of the Migdol

Image

Restored foundations under those cracks.

I also noticed that there is a trench about 1 foot deep around this southern wall, exposing the foundations. Nearby there are many new blocks which might be used to repair the foundations.
I might agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong!
Stan

  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post
  • Lectures ?
    by bonzo » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:03 pm » in History and Archaeology
    4 Replies
    108 Views
    Last post by Who2
    Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:09 pm
  • Grayson and the Reith Lectures...
    by Who2 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:44 pm » in Music - Movies - Entertainment
    5 Replies
    227 Views
    Last post by Who2
    Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:15 pm
  • Mummification Museum Lectures under threat!
    by BBLUX » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:49 pm » in History and Archaeology
    21 Replies
    376 Views
    Last post by Hafiz
    Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:24 pm
  • Mummification Museum Lectures 2013
    by BBLUX » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:41 am » in History and Archaeology
    28 Replies
    511 Views
    Last post by A-Four
    Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:46 am
  • Trump lectures Nato members
    by Horus » Fri May 26, 2017 10:10 am » in News and Sport
    7 Replies
    350 Views
    Last post by A-Four
    Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:04 pm