Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by A-Four » Sat May 20, 2017 10:07 pm

Bombay wrote:I was always told from day one that unless you had a Tourist Guides license or Fellucca Cpt licence in other words proper documentation to be associating with tourists it was not allowed and you could be nicked.
This is very true Bombay, on a regular basis the Fellucca Captains were gathered together at different points, being the so called British, French and German/Italian zones, usually very early in the morning, where licences were inspected and complaints sorted out.

In those even earlier days there were young independent tourist guides, there official title was 'friends to tourists' and had to speak at least one foreign language fluently. Many of you will remember the different zones for boats, German/Italian - Karnak, French - Luxor Museum to Mina Palace, British - Luxor Temple to Nova Hotel.



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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by Major Thom » Sun May 21, 2017 3:40 am

At least a thanks should be in order to Zooropa for telling it as it seems to be now. It was like that when we left, there was no way I would say it on the forum for obvious reasons, but yes other posters are right no money more pressure. Needless to say did not understand the importance of the marriage bit, there's a lifetime to get married. The no care attitude is growing we used to think, and all it does is make problems spiral.

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by A-Four » Sun May 21, 2017 2:04 pm

Zooropa wrote:Even my hotel managed to **** me off tonight and I thought id never ever criticise this place.

I paid for my meal at the Italian tonight a bill that came to 320 LE by giving 400 LE.

Now I fully intended to give the change as a tip which would have been 25% of the bill.
It's not very often that I take issue with the day to day life of tourism in Egypt, and hope you will forgive me for this attack Zoo, but it is the likes of the above stated by you, that tourism in Luxor for over the past 20 years that made the place become so crazy.

Imagine you and your son went to a restaurant in the West End of Leicester or even Belgrave Road,.......would you have left a 37% tip + tax ? You and I know what that answer would be, and it's certainly not yes. Most of the international hotels of the world, and those in Luxor that aspire to become so, make a 12% charge for all services including restaurant, if you so choose to use them.

Believe you me, any one who leaves such a generous tip in a hotel, word travels fast even to outside of such places. I can understand your feelings in the matter that the situation in Luxor is dire, but all you have done there is put a 25% tip in the pocket of one person, rather than the chef, cleaner or even pot washer, they get only a share of your 12% paid once a month.

I have never been able to understand why Westerners are so (I'll use a polite term here),......generous, when in Luxor, I would argue that it's not so much the locals that killed tourism in that town.

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by Zooropa » Sun May 21, 2017 4:03 pm

A-Four wrote:
Zooropa wrote:Even my hotel managed to **** me off tonight and I thought id never ever criticise this place.

I paid for my meal at the Italian tonight a bill that came to 320 LE by giving 400 LE.

Now I fully intended to give the change as a tip which would have been 25% of the bill.
It's not very often that I take issue with the day to day life of tourism in Egypt, and hope you will forgive me for this attack Zoo, but it is the likes of the above stated by you, that tourism in Luxor for over the past 20 years that made the place become so crazy.

Imagine you and your son went to a restaurant in the West End of Leicester or even Belgrave Road,.......would you have left a 37% tip + tax ? You and I know what that answer would be, and it's certainly not yes. Most of the international hotels of the world, and those in Luxor that aspire to become so, make a 12% charge for all services including restaurant, if you so choose to use them.

Believe you me, any one who leaves such a generous tip in a hotel, word travels fast even to outside of such places. I can understand your feelings in the matter that the situation in Luxor is dire, but all you have done there is put a 25% tip in the pocket of one person, rather than the chef, cleaner or even pot washer, they get only a share of your 12% paid once a month.

I have never been able to understand why Westerners are so (I'll use a polite term here),......generous, when in Luxor, I would argue that it's not so much the locals that killed tourism in that town.
My dear A4 - you are entitled to your opinion as I am on yours and you are speaking complete guff.

Ive heard this waffle offered up as an excuse almost as long as ive been coming here.

All I have done here is put nothing in the pocket of no one. I got my change and left no tip.

The person in the restaurant had no idea what tip I was planning to leave, me having not eaten there in 9 years.

If any word got around about this incident then it was if you don't bring this particular pale face his change hes going to kick off and you will get zip and he wont trouble you for your services in the future.

I'm surprised that you have sought to explain away poor service by criticising me on the amount I intended to tip.

You can hold as responsible overly generous tippers for the near zero tourism in Egypt if you like but in doing so you are suggesting that you have exchanged your brain with a turnip.

You see what happens when you come second in a bargain my good man, not good.

Id ask to exchange back.

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by newcastle » Sun May 21, 2017 4:50 pm

Does the restaurant bill in Nile Palace contain a 12.5% service charge? I've no idea. If it is, you would expect it to be an item on the bill.

If it is, should one offer more than the 12.5%? Views may differ but I would say "no"...unless there was something exceptional about the meal, service or whatever.

If there was no stated service charge (or that it was included), one would normally assume that it wasn't included and tip. 25% is generous...but, each to their own. I often simply round up...and on occasion that might be 25% although it's usually in the 10-15% range.

Is excess tipping the cause of the Luxor tourism malaise?
made the place become so crazy.
or
killed tourism in that town.
You're kidding A-Four.....or have been at the bottle again :lol:

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by Zooropa » Sun May 21, 2017 6:43 pm

newcastle wrote:Does the restaurant bill in Nile Palace contain a 12.5% service charge?
I'm led to believe it does not.

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by newcastle » Sun May 21, 2017 7:58 pm

Zooropa wrote:
newcastle wrote:Does the restaurant bill in Nile Palace contain a 12.5% service charge?
I'm led to believe it does not.
If it was, the bill...or sometimes the menu itself...would usually say something like "service (and taxes) included".

If it's not mentioned anywhere, it's pretty reasonable to assume it's not included.

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by Zooropa » Sun May 21, 2017 9:36 pm

Just paid for my final meal this trip.

Pleased to report a pulling in of the belt and a tip of only 10.26% was tendered.

Like to think I'm doing my bit to push back the craziness! :up
Last edited by Zooropa on Sun May 21, 2017 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by Zooropa » Sun May 21, 2017 9:41 pm

newcastle wrote:
Zooropa wrote:
newcastle wrote:Does the restaurant bill in Nile Palace contain a 12.5% service charge?
I'm led to believe it does not.
If it was, the bill...or sometimes the menu itself...would usually say something like "service (and taxes) included".

If it's not mentioned anywhere, it's pretty reasonable to assume it's not included.
I'm afraid I didn't keep the receipt after all.

As I mentioned at the time it was screwed up and after I kicked off (sounds worse than it was) it created such a hoohar that I assumed it would be remembered when I checked out that the meal had been paid for.

It had better be!

I spoke to a guest who claims to be a regular stayer and he said it was not included in bills.

Having said that I don't really care to be honest!

Being partly responsible for sending Luxor mad is a much meatier problem to be wrestling with!

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by newcastle » Mon May 22, 2017 6:11 am

Zooropa wrote:Just paid for my final meal this trip.

Pleased to report a pulling in of the belt .......
Success! Well done!!

You can now pose without breathing in ;)

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by Dusak » Mon May 22, 2017 6:48 am

I doubt very much if high tipping has had the slightest influence on the declining numbers of tourism in Luxor. If anything, if high tipping had been the past order of the day, it may have increased the misery. If these die hard waiters that still serve the tourist have decided to stick with their low paid jobs and where in receipt of suggested high tips in the past, then their incomes have plummeted even further down the slippery slope of basic needs. If a rich Yank suddenly arrived at any hotel and gave tips every night of 1,000Le, then word would soon get around the city. But would it? I think those on the receiving end would like to keep this sudden short term bonus to themselves. And usually, all other staff involved in the food end of things know that their waiters would get tips and I doubt very much if he would chance their wrath if he did not share them out accordingly.

My friends staying at the E-tab were telling me that there is an English man staying there. Every morning he brings a flask of tea down with him. He drinks it all, then returns to his room and makes a fresh one. All he does all the day is read in the shade. When approached by a waiter he states quite clearly that he requires no pool side service, and he intends to issue zero tips concerning any service while staying at the hotel. When one of my friends asked why this attitude, he told them that if any waiter refuses to acknowledge the first polite ''no thank you, if I need anything I will call you.'' Then the whole staff reap my no rewards for all. If this had been the rule of law from the very beginning of tourism, then perhaps tourism would be better off today. Although personally I do consider him to be a bit of a tight twot. :tk Mr. Yare brings his own flask to Egypt, does he not. :lol:
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by Horus » Mon May 22, 2017 11:24 am

Here is an interesting article on the history of tipping, it goes back further than we may imagine and produced the same dilemma: ;)

Tipping is ingrained in American culture but its origins are murky.

Tipping may have begun in the late Middle Ages when a master gave his servant a few coins as an expression of good will. By the 16th century, guests at English mansions were expected to give a "vail" or small amount of money at the end of the visit to compensate the owner's servants who did work above and beyond their ordinary duties.

Kerry Segrave, author of "Tipping: An American History of Social Gratuities," explained that by 1760, footmen, valets, and gentleman's servants all expected vails, leading to great expense to the guests. The gentry and aristocracy began to complain. An attempt to abolish vails in London in 1764 led to rioting.

Tipping soon spread to British commercial establishments, such as hotels, pubs, and restaurants. In 1800, the Scottish philosopher and writer Thomas Carlyle complained about tipping a waiter at the Bell Inn in Gloucester, "The dirty scrub of a waiter grumbled about his allowance, which I reckoned liberal. I added sixpence to it, and [he] produced a bow which was near rewarding with a kick. Accursed be the race of flunkeys!"

It is not clear when the word "tip" came into the English language but some speculate that the origins of the word came from Samuel Johnson. Johnson frequented a coffeeshop which had a bowl labeled "To Insure Promptitude," and Johnson and other guests would put a coin into the bowl throughout the evening to receive better service.

This soon was shortened to "T.I.P." and then simply tip.

Prior to 1840, Americans did not tip. But, after the Civil War, newly rich Americans visited Europe and brought the practice back home to show that they had been abroad and knew genteel rules. A New York Times editor grumbled that, once tipping got hold in the United States, it spread rapidly like "evil insects and weeds."

By the 1900s, Americans considered tipping to be the norm and, in fact, were frequently criticized for overtipping. Englishmen complained that "liberal but misguided" Americans tipped too much, leading servants to feel shortchanged by the British. Similarly, a 1908 Travel magazine found that Americans overtipped but received poorer service because Americans did not know how to treat servants and service members.

As tipping became widespread in America, many found it to be antithetical to democracy and American ideals of equality. In 1891, journalist Arthur Gaye wrote that a tip should be given to someone "who is presumed to be inferior to the donor, not only in worldly wealth, but in social position also." "Tipping, and the aristocratic idea it exemplifies, is what we left Europe to escape,” William Scott wrote in his 1916 anti-tipping brochure, “The Itching Palm,” in which he argued that tipping was as "un-American" as "slavery."

In 1904, the Anti-Tipping Society of America sprang up in Georgia, and its 100,000 members signed pledges not to tip anyone for a year. In 1909, Washington became the first of six states to pass an anti-tipping law. But, the new laws rarely were enforced, and, by 1926, every anti-tipping law had been repealed.

Tipping again changed in the 1960s, when Congress agreed that workers could receive a lower minimum wage if a portion of their salary came from tips. The minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13, which has not changed in over 20 years, as long as those workers receive at least $7.25 in tips per hour. Saru Jayaraman, author of Behind the Kitchen Door, explains that a minimum wage of $2.13 means that their full wage will go toward taxes and forces tipped workers to live off their tips.

Others have noted that because waiters live off their tips, tipping in the United States is more mandatory rather than voluntary, rarely relates to quality of service, and can be based on racial and sexual discrimination. Cornell Professor Michael Lynn's extensive research on tipping, suggests that this history and association with giving money to inferiors may be why we continue to tip today.

Lynn posits that "[w]e tip because we feel guilty about having people wait on us." This societal guilt was reportedly noted by Benjamin Franklin in Paris who said, "To overtip is to appear an ass: to undertip is to appear an even greater ass."

To combat many of these problems with tipping, a few American restaurants, such as Sushi Yasuda and Riki Restaurant, have made the news for banning tipping at their restaurants and, instead, paying their wait staff higher wages. In 2015, several restaurant groups also banned tips.


Source: https://www.tripsavvy.com/a-brief-histo ... ng-1329249
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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by newcastle » Mon May 29, 2017 3:55 pm

Egypt drafts new bill to impose fines on tourist harassers

Egypt has drafted this month a new bill that would impose hefty fines on tourist harassers as part of the state’s efforts to attract additional tourists and heal the country’s ailing tourism industry.

State television quoted Egypt’s Antiquities Minister, Khaled El-Anani, as saying at a press conference that the draft law stipulates that a tourist harasser could receive a fine ranging from LE 3,000 to LE 10,000.

“The draft law ensures that if tourists experience an act that displeases them in any way, the harassers is subjected to get a maximum fine of LE10,000,” El-Anani said, adding that this new article is introduced to be added to the previous Antiquities Law which was issued back in 1983.

The parliament, however, has to approve the proposed draft bill before it become an effective law.

Local hawkers of souvenirs in Egypt’s touristic sites are often seen chasing and nagging visitors at the country’s sightseeing sites to force them to buy their wares — a practice that annoys many and blemishes Egypt’s reputation abroad.

“Such practices irritate tourists and send them a ghastly notion about Egypt and the Egyptian people. That is why this law aims to curb these perceptions,” El-Anani said.

“We hope that this law, if correctly implemented, would not just end the constant nagging of shop owners at touristic sites, but also put an end to sexual harassment that greatly hinders our touristic reputation abroad,” Reda Halfawi, a member of the Tourism Investors’ Association said.

“This decision sends a message to the world that Egypt is actively taking the legal measures necessary to put an end to widely reported incidents of harassment,” Akawy added.

El-Anani stated that among the proposed changes approved by the council of ministers is a law that will make illegal excavations and trade in antiquities offences punishable by up to life imprisonment.

In recent years, the illegal practices have become widespread in Egypt, mainly due to a security breakdown that hit the country following the 2011 uprising.

Egypt has an unrivaled wealth of antiquities dating back to different eras. Egypt’s tourism industry, a crucial source of hard currency, has suffered in the years of turmoil that followed the mass protests, as well as from the suspected bombing of a Russian plane in Sinai in 2015, which killed all 224 people on board.

The number of tourists visiting Egypt this year could come close to levels seen before its 2011 uprising, encouraged by investments in airport security and a cheaper Egyptian pound, the country’s Tourism Minister said.

http://expatcairo.com/egypt-drafts-new- ... harassers/

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Re: Egypt vows crackdown on tourist harassers

Post by newcastle » Mon May 29, 2017 4:02 pm

Antiquities minister Khaked El-Anani certainly envisages putting some "teeth" into the proposed legislation.

From the Tourism minister :
The number of tourists visiting Egypt this year could come close to levels seen before its 2011 uprising, encouraged by investments in airport security and a cheaper Egyptian pound, the country’s Tourism Minister said
.

I think we've heard that one before :urm:

Having said that, I note 21 flights from abroad are due into Hurghada today.

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