Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to death

Advice, information and discussion about Egypt in general.

Moderators: Horus, DJKeefy, 4u Network

User avatar
DJKeefy
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 10743
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 776 times
Been thanked: 1794 times
Gender:
Egypt

Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to death

Post by DJKeefy » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:13 am

Egypt's Minya criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to death.

In a historical first in Egypt, a Minya Court has ordered that 529 Muslim Brotherhood supporters be sentenced to death for involvement in 'violence' following ‪#‎Morsi‬'s ouster and the dispersal of Rabaa Al-Adaweya.

According to initial reports, 529 were sentenced to death and 17 found innocent on charges of attacking police stations, killing police officers, and other violence-related charges.

The paperwork to finalize the death sentences, the largest ever in one case a number greater than the total number sentenced to death in Egypt's modern history, will now be sent to the Grand Mufti for approval. Normally such a procedure is purely procedural, but it remains to be seem whether this week be an exceptional case requiring action to stop.


Image

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3774
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 1679 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by A-Four » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:24 am

I am not quite clear how the court proceeding were carried out, is it possible that a member of the forum in Egypt could enlighten us, as to whether each case was carried out to the standards of international law.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Glyphdoctor » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:01 am

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent ... --Bro.aspx

http://thecairopost.com/news/103433/new ... -acquitted

These links might help to explain some more. I also believe, but am not certain, that those tried in absentia do not have the right of appeal.

User avatar
Who2
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 6545
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: Snitzel
Has thanked: 1445 times
Been thanked: 5210 times
Gender:
Vietnam

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Who2 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:52 pm

Far be it from me, but it sounds a little bit OTT, not sure how the world's media will view it, but no-doubt will make for great television.. :cool:
"The Salvation of Mankind lies in making everything the responsibility of All"
Sophocles.

User avatar
Chocolate Eclair
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 1621
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:56 pm
Location: Luxor Egypt
Has thanked: 124 times
Been thanked: 752 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Chocolate Eclair » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:23 pm

And Tourism....

User avatar
Brian Yare
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 2535
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:11 pm
Location: Worcester, UK
Has thanked: 1184 times
Been thanked: 1261 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Brian Yare » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:52 pm

A-Four wrote:I am not quite clear how the court proceeding were carried out, is it possible that a member of the forum in Egypt could enlighten us, as to whether each case was carried out to the standards of international law.
Why International law? Egypt has its own laws and can apply them as it wishes.

It will be interesting to see how the Grand Mufti treats his brethren.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3774
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 1679 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by A-Four » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:53 am

This morning here in London we learn that Mohammed Badie along with 682 others go on trial today, at the same court where yesterday 540 were sentenced to death.

.........oh what a circus, oh what a show,...........

Subversion
Member
Member
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:18 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 168 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Subversion » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:45 am

On BBC news last night - one of the "condemned"was interviewed in Cairo - currently on bail he was tried I believe "in abstentia" claiming the defence presented + 1000 pages of evidence which was not heard in a case which lasted less than one day before sentence was passed.

As I understand, during the index demonstrations, a police officer lost his life and I agree that those responsible should be brought to justice.

But there is no justice in putting to death 540 people.

All actions in life have an underlying motivation/intent - and it is clear that the intent here is not one of achieving justice.

OK this is Egypt not Britain - but the founding principle of British law is "He that seek equity do equity".

Our world is a small one, and if we continue to close our eyes to global crimes against humanity we cannot expect ad infinitum that our own principles of justice will continue to hold up, inside our very small castle walls.

For those of you who chose to make your homes and lives in Egypt - agreeably you have your day to day challenges - and you are not Egyptian - but it is your adopted home.

If the Egyptian courts carry out these sentences - what do you feel that will do to the national conscience of Egyptians - people you live amongst, live with, trade with, socialise with?

Do you want to continue to live in a country that will effectively murder 540 of its own with no underlying justifiable cause?

Do you feel this is a situation where you need to speak out?

Just interested to hear what the ex-pat community feels on this issue?

S x

User avatar
Chocolate Eclair
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 1621
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:56 pm
Location: Luxor Egypt
Has thanked: 124 times
Been thanked: 752 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Chocolate Eclair » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:25 pm

Wonder if these people still live in Egypt? and how many were sentenced in their absence. I know it seems harsh, but the Country has its laws, and they must be obeyed whoever you are. Also to pass such sentences there must be a lot of substantial evidence to prove their guilt.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Glyphdoctor » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:37 pm

I'm tempted to set up an anonymous Survey Monkey survey with one question:

"What do you really think about what is going on in Egypt these days?"

And then invite all L4U members to weigh in and see what you all really think.

It definitely would be enlightening, more enlightening probably than anything posted here.

Subversion
Member
Member
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:18 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 168 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Subversion » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:52 pm

Chocolate Eclair wrote:Wonder if these people still live in Egypt? and how many were sentenced in their absence. I know it seems harsh, but the Country has its laws, and they must be obeyed whoever you are. Also to pass such sentences there must be a lot of substantial evidence to prove their guilt.
Im not the brightest bean in the box so happy to stand corrected as needed - however

Laws - what is "fair" law - something that has stood in tradition - or something that is made up as we go along to suit the political needs of the moment.

Substantial evidence - the "trial" lasted one session - I am not sure what opportunity that gave either the prosecution or defence a chance to fairly present the arguments.

The country has its laws - that is as maybe - but that doesn't make them right or fair. And in a country trying to find a pathway to sustainable democracy, this type of act takes it right back to the dark ages of dictatorship - with a population cowed by fear.

The law must be obeyed whoever you are - tell me honestly - In all you do, do you always obey Egyptian law to the letter?

Or are the "Colonials" exempt from that?

And does the "law" only apply to those who in their view challenged the overthrowing of what they saw as their democratically elected leader?

I get the argument that we have no right to intervene in the politics of other countries - and we do do far too much of it. BUT as individual human beings - what of our own salvation when we stand back and say nothing..

Sx

User avatar
carrie
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4268
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:46 am
Location: luxor
Has thanked: 2741 times
Been thanked: 5293 times
United Kingdom

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by carrie » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:12 pm

Well I will take your survey Glyph and say I don't know what is going on, how 500+ people can be fairly judged in two short sessions in the court amazes me and today another 600+ go on trial.
I have no idea what the future of Egypt will be but believe me I wouldn't have the job of President here for a Kings ransom, who ever gets the job and it looks more and more likely to be Field Marshall El Sisi, I don't envy him. Not being sexist by saying him but NO chance for a woman.

User avatar
Dusak
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 5874
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
Location: LUXOR
Has thanked: 5895 times
Been thanked: 7327 times
Gender:
Thailand

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Dusak » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:34 pm

When a country like Egypt has its courts and prisons and dark undisclosed pens full to bursting with what this country has now labeled 'terrorists' they probably feel they have the right to fast track them to the gallows. Could you ever believe or trust a terrorist? Is it not better, in the grand schema of things, to cleanse the nation of these folk that not to long ago they, the people, were hailing as the savior's of a dieing country. This land is fickle to the point of not knowing which way to turn, who to support and change their views on everything on a daily basis. The pathway is long and the population is easily lead in the one direction. Offer them the moon they will except, the only questions asked when do we get it? And will it bring down the price of cheese? If you suddenly give a child a toy to play with and that child has never seen a toy before he/she will probable ruin it before they discover its true worth.

I comment to friends about the state of things as they are now, or could be tomorrow. But for me, leave the politics of a foreign country to the gifted politicians. We all just have to wait that little bit longer until some show up that would warrant that title.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3774
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 1679 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by A-Four » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:30 pm

Glyphdoctor wrote:I'm tempted to set up an anonymous Survey Monkey survey with one question:

"What do you really think about what is going on in Egypt these days?"

And then invite all L4U members to weigh in and see what you all really think.

It definitely would be enlightening, more enlightening probably than anything posted here.
Ah, but Glyph, you know as well as I, that there would be two schools of thought, those that write from an Egyptian dongal, and those that do not.

This could be the start of the 'reign of terror', remember there are still some 16,000 still in jail since the fall of Morsi, awaiting trial, many on trumped up charges.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3774
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 1679 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by A-Four » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:50 pm

A couple of weeks ago now, during the Mousi trial, it was 'discovered' that his annual salary was set at £44,000, however we learn that he In fact claimed £77,000. A difference of £33,000. This shows how crazy proceeding are carried out, the court was outraged that he had 'taken' this additional amount.

For goodness sake, British M.P.'s fiddle more than that on their allowances, whether it be a garden bird bath or what. We are talking of a president of a nation, he could not just get on the Cairo metro and pay l LE, like other people.

The trial continues,................and so will the comedy.
Last edited by A-Four on Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Subversion
Member
Member
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:18 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 168 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Subversion » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:08 pm

Dusak wrote:When a country like Egypt has its courts and prisons and dark undisclosed pens full to bursting with what this country has now labeled 'terrorists' they probably feel they have the right to fast track them to the gallows. Could you ever believe or trust a terrorist? Is it not better, in the grand schema of things, to cleanse the nation of these folk that not to long ago they, the people, were hailing as the savior's of a dieing country. This land is fickle to the point of not knowing which way to turn, who to support and change their views on everything on a daily basis. The pathway is long and the population is easily lead in the one direction. Offer them the moon they will except, the only questions asked when do we get it? And will it bring down the price of cheese? If you suddenly give a child a toy to play with and that child has never seen a toy before he/she will probable ruin it before they discover its true worth.

I comment to friends about the state of things as they are now, or could be tomorrow. But for me, leave the politics of a foreign country to the gifted politicians. We all just have to wait that little bit longer until some show up that would warrant that title.

Without meaning to sound "Colonialist" -

I remember when McDonald's first opened in Luxor - I thought this is great - let the kids run round with no shoes on their feet but hey ho at least they can eat burgers!

Then of course came the "Shirley Valentines" …I remember one night sitting in a Luxor restaurant with a couple - she british in her late 50's, dripping gold and cleavage, he barely 16 in pink flip flops sporting a Rolex.

My own feeling was that Egypt, particularly Luxor at that time, was growing like some deformed creature - 10 foot arms but no legs to support itself on.

I chastised myself for being "colonialist" - why shouldn't Egyptian children eat McDonalds if those in Blighty can - and the answer to myself was, that despite all the shortcomings, in Blighty before we had what can be described as mass consumer "wealth" we had a functioning health service, compulsory education, almost full employment, a welfare state, nationalised utilities - Egypt had none of those things in place to a functional national/equitable standard.

I remember watching the "revolution" and commenting to my partner - "the trouble with Egyptians is that they know what they don't want, but they don't know what they really do want and within that no understanding of what it is possible to have and certainly not in the timeframe they wish to have it".

No wonder they are "fickle" - the "snapshots" of Western consumerism that the young men particularly, have been able to access in recent years have "spoilt" a generation and possibly cost the best chance that Egypt ever had to move to a democratic society.

I feel sad that so many lives are now condemned and I do think that a lot of what is going wrong it directly linked to the influence of "western" culture in small towns like Luxor

Sx

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Glyphdoctor » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:18 pm

A-Four wrote:We are talking of a president of a nation, he could not just get on the Cairo metro and pay l LE, like other people.
During Morsi's rule, at least half of the metro passengers got on and off the trains without buying tickets at all. G4S was providing the security...or not.

Then a few weeks after he was removed, G4S was no longer providing security. Instead Queen Service started providing security and people started buying tickets again. I'll let you do your own research on who owns Queen.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3774
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1561 times
Been thanked: 1679 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by A-Four » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:59 pm

Glyphdoctor wrote:
A-Four wrote:We are talking of a president of a nation, he could not just get on the Cairo metro and pay l LE, like other people.
During Morsi's rule, at least half of the metro passengers got on and off the trains without buying tickets at all. G4S was providing the security...or not.

Then a few weeks after he was removed, G4S was no longer providing security. Instead Queen Service started providing security and people started buying tickets again. I'll let you do your own research on who owns Queen.

Not only will the military in Egypt be getting 100% of the vote, but it seems that their present 40% of Egypt's GDP hold on the economy will soon reach that same dizzy height. :wi .

User avatar
Dusak
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 5874
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
Location: LUXOR
Has thanked: 5895 times
Been thanked: 7327 times
Gender:
Thailand

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Dusak » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:32 pm

They are always spouting on about what they are giving the people on the local Arabic TV channels. But they never mention the fact that this ''new'' revenue has come from the hundreds of thousands of pensions they have cut or removed from the people that need it the most, the impoverished. Now they are on about cutting the subsidized monthly food boxes to only those that really need it, the dead probably when they have died of starvation. ? Box of food or a box of bullets? Decisions, decisions.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

User avatar
Hafiz
V.I.P
V.I.P
Posts: 1234
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:23 pm
Has thanked: 793 times
Been thanked: 725 times
Gender:
Australia

Re: Criminal court sentences 529 Brotherhood supporters to d

Post by Hafiz » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:48 am

The bluster about colonialism is just that. Its for Egypt to set and determine crimes but the issue in the west is not the penalty but due process and I encourage others to read the eye witness new agency reports on the comedic Kafka court proceedings that led to the 529 death penalties for 1 murder and a small number of other crimes.

As a aside consider, from a logical point of view, of how 529 persons could be convicted of a single murder. Did they all conspire and agree this at a single or multiple meetings? If so the meeting must have been large and the attendance list well kept. With such a large group how could all be so equally liable? Surely some were more liable than others? The offenses involved are starting to sound like group guilt where each individual member of a particular group is equally responsible for all the actions of all other members of the group whether they actually participated in the actions of the group or whether they protested or argued against them. I suspect that the brotherhood statutes are drafted in this way and that no actual involvement in any one crime is necessary in order to execute any member of the Brotherhood whether he lives at the other end of Egypt or opposes violence or not.

Don't forget the charge was for only one murder. For due process the individual accused must know what they are charged with, the state must give evidence proving guilt which can be cross-examined, the accused must be allowed to produce evidence of innicence, there must be rules of evidence, the judge must be independent, the accused must be allowed counsel etc. None of this has happened but it wouldn't have been too difficult for the Government to do this. Had the government provided for procedural fairness the UN would have had little to complain of. Another way of looking at it is that no judicial system worth its salt charges and convicts a group. Each person must be shown that he/she was individually responsible for the crime.

No judge in any civilized country would handle a capital crime in such a summary and bulk justice way but judges in Egypt have, over the past 3 years, been prepared to proceed in an unjudicial and pro-government way in the Mubarak cases, including others charged of financial crimes, and, more recently the lenient penalties, 7 years, for police murder of 37 protesters.

There is mounting evidence that the Egyptian Judiciary is an arm of government just as it was for decades under Sadat and Mubarak but what is new is that it thinks it can get away with scandalous breaches of due process. In the 'good old days' they would have run the case for a few months and acquitted the young and very old and the west would have said little.

In this case several hours of court hearings have been considered sufficient for 529 death sentences. Life is obviously cheap and guilt is universally uniform across this very large group.

In another case, which includes the Australian journalist, western reporters allege that the state case was not ready and that the judge had to assist state 'witnesses' because the whole case was badly investigated and presented in court. Quick and dirty court proceedings like the case of the 529 have the effect of concealing the weakness of the state case just and even with very prominent cases, such as the Jazeera Australian case, there is a shamelessness about lack of evidence and intervention by the judge to assist the state case. If they can't develop a case in this one then god knows what cases they bring to court in less prominent ones.

The Government are moving to deal with the overwhelming negative international reaction and one release emphasizes that the convictions were made by a junior and provincial court and that there was a right of appeal. Expect a suitably lengthy appear and 20% acquittals or non-capital convictions to make it look like there has been

  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post
  • Egypt Court Sentences 75 to Death
    by Winged Isis » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:31 pm » in Politics and Religion
    8 Replies
    357 Views
    Last post by Major Thom
    Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:33 am
  • Court sentences 14 Islamists to death over Sinai 2011 attack
    by DJKeefy » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:55 pm » in Know Egypt
    0 Replies
    219 Views
    Last post by DJKeefy
    Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:55 pm
  • Morsi referred to criminal court over Dec. 2012 violence
    by DJKeefy » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:25 pm » in Know Egypt
    0 Replies
    128 Views
    Last post by DJKeefy
    Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:25 pm
  • Egypt court sentences four gays to prison
    by DJKeefy » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:57 pm » in Know Egypt
    6 Replies
    617 Views
    Last post by Glyphdoctor
    Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:13 pm
  • Egypt military court sentences poet to prison...
    by DJKeefy » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:23 am » in News and Sport
    2 Replies
    137 Views
    Last post by Major Thom
    Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:37 am