Support for Ex-pats?

[Zooropa]

Erm, I would re read what you wrote there pet(no offence).

Again, no offence but you've just made yourself look stupid (in my opinion).

There is no twisted logic just a lack of understanding on your part, and capitalising the word "not" has just compounded it for you.

Perhaps its late at night or that it needs explaining differently to you.

I think you have tied yourself up in knots with the word "not.

The statement whether you agree with it or not, is not saying you have a right to be offended, its saying the opposite, its saying that for the purposes of debate and allowing others to take up a contrary position and to be able to disagree with you and make conclusions based on your point of view you cant pull out a "im offended by that" waiver card because it stifles debate.

So whether you agree with it or not, (and to be honest you cant have a sensible view either way at the moment because you have not grasped the meaning of it) the logic is not twisted, its consistent, you're obliged not to be!

This phrase is well known, I have not made it up, ask the members if they have heard of it, ive given you a link to a show that explains it well and has won numerous awards and Penn & Teller are championed by several Libertarian and free thinking groups, you are of course entitled to think its BS, but I think its because you don't understand it and it may be better to do that before you judge.

Where is Bullet when you need him, he's much better at explaining this sort of thing.

Have a think about it.

In my opinion what Penn & Teller are saying is, we should be free to offend because you cant legislate for offence, someone could be offended because someone else is wearing a red jumper, like they made reference to, someone could be offended with someone wearing leather or a fur jacket.

where do you draw the line?

Who is to say that's offensive and this is not etc?

They are saying in a roundabout way that offence is impossible to avoid because there is not and cannot be a set standard for offence, so offend and be offended, question things and debate them.

Its a philosophical question and such questions are not always easily understood initially.

It should not be dismissed because of that.

If you had or could demonstrate that you understand the question I could accept your view but that one line in your last post demonstrates that you don't.

No offence.

Having followed this strand, I have found some of your arguments and phrasing very confusing as well.

I also would disagree with the statement that "No one has the right not to be offended"

Whether I get offended or not is not something another can control. I will get offended based on my own beliefs, ethics and understandings.

If you mean people do not have the right to use their personal feeling of offence as an argument in a discussion so shut down opposing views then I can see the point although I don't necessarily agree with it.
Many arguments I see on this forum fall into logical traps but as long as their is no abuse I am happy to point out the flaws. Personal offence is not a logical position but can often explain a blinkered or emotive response, and needs to be considered if people wish to progress the discussion.

What I mean is

"no one has the right not to be offended"

How can any debate be free from the threat of being closed down if you can just say "that's offensive, you are a nasty offensive person".

What if I were to say that about what you have just said?

Would it be ok to go around for the next few days referring back to your "nasty name calling offensive nature"?

There are limits which are protected in law, if you were to call someone nasty for the two terms I used in the other thread then it leaves no room whatsoever for the truly ugly things that are sometimes said the likes of which have led to suicides recently, if what I said is nasty then how do you define the other behaviour.

That's why the law would not deem what I said as unlawful, and its the reason why I presume the post was not taken down, because it would close down debate, by all means take offence but don't use it as stick to neutralise or label the other person as nasty.

There are few if any people that would go through life without being called selfish at some point, is everyone who said it nasty?

[Chocolate Eclair]

Sorry Carrie I should have made myself clearer, to me an ex pat does not necessarily have to be an English ex pat, it could be an ex pat from any European Country, its just that I use the word ex pat in a wide sense.

[Bombay]

The wardens only receive the same information as the rest of you do via e-mails from the Embassy web site.

Really??
The FCO send me the email, which points here:
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/egypt

And I can assure you it in no way resembles the detailed information that the wardens recieve by email and then paste all over facebook.
It wouldn't get up my trousers quite so much if the same information was available everywhere, but the fact that the Embassy is too bloody lazy to paste it onto their own fb page, is getting right on my left nip.

Are these Alex colloquial expressions

[TAL777]

Reading some comments it would seem that some people actually living in Luxor and the surrounding area, assume that those of us in the UK and other non Egyptian countries, rely solely on information given out by the media (media being a very big umbrella word in itself in my opinion).

Personally, I have not watched the television news much at all and I certainly have not listened to the radio or read newspapers. That does not mean that I have not got a good idea of what is going on in Luxor and the rest of Egypt at the moment. I sometimes think I am better informed than some in Luxor ( who appear to live in little sanitised bubbles ) because I am in daily contact with many people, of different nationalities including Egyptians, and who are of differing religious and political persuasions. I know I am not alone in this.

I know that some people in Luxor think it is safe, and so far, thankfully, that has been the case for them. It most certainly has not been the case for all and the fear some locals and expats have felt is more than real (and can be felt across the distance to those they are in contact with).

With regard to the question of 'having to leave Luxor' I see some have said they would not wish to take part in any evacuation but would rather wait and sit it out. That is fair enough. However, there has also been comment by some (I am writing generally and not specific to this thread) that they would not wish to be evacuated and would only leave if they really had to, implying this would be a decision made after any official evacuation. I wonder at what point it could become too late. If a government have operated an evacuation of it's citizens from a country, no matter how flawed that may seem, they are not going to be repeating that. It would be fair to assume that gradually airports would be closed for one reason or another, so how would people get themselves out of the hot spot where it to become one? I have been stuck in a landlocked country during a military coup and the airport shut down so it is not too difficult for my imagination to deal with this. Also all phone communication was cut. This was in the days well before mobile phones and private computers. I was fortunate as, other than the President and his security staff being killed it was a bloodless coup. Egypt, whether this is a coup or not, is showing it's violent side and tribal instincts are also coming to the fore.

I wish all my friends and contacts in Egypt well, but I fear too many are not taking things seriously enough!

EDIT: I originally wrote '(I am writing generally and specific to this thread)'
This should have read '(I am writing generally and not specific to this thread)
Sorry.

I do get that impression as well.
I have watched the news coverage extensively and for once I think the BBC have taken this very seriously, by actually broadcasting direct from Cairo. As have Channel Four News and I think anybody who saw their report from a makeshift morgue the day after the massacre cannot help but be moved by the gravity of what is going on. Neither of these got into the 'politics' of it, but merely focussed on the tragic and very heavy loss of life that has occured in a short time.

[timetraveller]

D, I did not realise this, I thought that if evacuation was implemented all had to take part, I did not realise that at the end of the day it was your choice.

After reading one post they are very right, when the troubles started in Libya the ex pats were taken across the Med. and no further, I know of one who is not an ex pat who cannot wait for this, it will save them the money they so desperately seekijng to get home. The trouble is they will be flying out of the fat and into the frying pan.

Whether evacuation would be compulsory or not might well be down to the Egyptian Government at the end of the day Choc. If they decide that they do not want the headache of the possible death of foreign nationals on their soil then it may be compulsory to leave. But it may not be compulsory to be evacuated by the British Army, although this may be seen as the most effective, economic and thus preferred strategy for getting people out safely.

It probably won't come to it, but if it does- would a little sojourn in Cyprus be such a hardship?

[Dusak]

The wardens system receives information as when it is received. From what I can see recently there is more than one department issuing these instructions/advice/warnings. Just because our section is a little behind your times of recite of information is no reason to knock it. In regards to my comment that some would like to see the fall of Rome reenacted by us expats being shunted out, it was not necessarily connected to this post, but a few ''read between the lines'' of posts going back many months. I have a good memory. I do not decry any well wishers saying keep safe, its just that one or two of them seem to come over as a little too much 'talking down to one' sense of, as if we are not intelligent to know this fact/facts. Perhaps its just me being a tad finicky. My gut feeling is that I genuinely think that it will never come to a required evacuation status. Things could heat up, but nothing that we can't live through.

[timetraveller]

Zooropa, please don't call me 'Pet'. It's a diminuative term and I would imagine that's why you are using it!

And I think you are missing the point. The double negative negates the argument you are trying to make, or I think you are trying to make, because, like biosceptic I find your arguments very confused. You think I 'look stupid' because I misunderstand the point you are trying to make. But maybe the fault rests with you and your apparent inability to express yourself clearly and unambiguously!

If you were to say 'No one has the right to be offended' this would make perfect sense and would accord with your argument that people 'taking offence' impedes the flow of an argument and 'stifles debate'. It doesn't in my case, incidentally. I've told you that I am offended by your insults and then carried on making my points relevant to the topic in hand. You do not seem to have been able to do that. Perhaps I have 'stifled you'. Oh, if only....

But what you are actually saying is:- ' No one has the right NOT to be offended', which, taken literally would mean that we are obliged to take offence! Obviously this is a nonsense and negates your own argument. The only way that this would make any sense in that context is if it were to be assumed that the comment refers to a society which has become so 'politically correct' that one is almost obliged to take offence at virtually everything. But that is not the point you are trying to make is it?

But the term itself is ambiguous. Does it mean that one is obliged to take offence or does it mean that nobody has the right to expect not to have people direct remarks at them which they are likely to find offensive? Which would form the substance of your argument! Grammatically the first is most likely, but then, they are American and the modes of expression are sometimes different.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the comic? argument presented by Penn and Teller is nonsensical, just that it was a bad example for you to use because it does not effectively and clearly illustrate your argument.

Basically my own view is that people are entitled to take offence at personal remarks directed at them and are entitled to raise objections to them. If this impedes the ability of the person who made the remarks from continuing to 'debate' then they need to improve their communication skills!

But please don't worry (not that you would!) that I might take offence at your saying that I have made myself 'look stupid'. I frequently feel the same way about the posts you make. The only difference is I would not have felt it necessary to say so!

[A-Four]

It seems that Egypt has now entered the reign of terror period, where any thing can and probably will happen. Throughout this period whether it be long or short, is sure to be very violent. The modern day term for this event is called state of emergency, but the effect is the same. What follows this will be the 'iron fist', I think every one understands that one.

The information I am getting from friends in Upper Egypt, though away from Luxor, is that everything is under control, with alot of 'black-shirts' on the ground, which is most unusual in the small villages, though this seems to prove that the authorities have well planned their operations for the whole nations.

We do not seem to hear from any one what are the effects in Luxor, as this is important to 'paint' the full picture of what is happening on the grand scale, rather than Cairo and Alex.

[timetraveller]

What's happened to the rest of your post A-Four?

[timetraveller]

Oh there it is!

[A-Four]

Sorry TT, I am down here in Bournemouth for a few days, and am useing my brother's, for a better word, lap-top, things keep going wrong with it.

[timetraveller]

I know what that's like! Must be nice in Bournemouth right now. Say Hello to Steve for me. Hope your knee is holding up.

[Maakari]

Enjoy your stay in Bournemouth A Four! You are breathing the air just 6 miles from me,..............and what Drizzly, windy, dark, dingy, dank, dire, un-summer like air it is tonight!

[Chocolate Eclair]

I think TT that the ex pats are just keeping themselves to themselves and not getting involved with the scene at the moment, which is wise to do so. I was in Luxor yesterday to pick up a parcel, and it looked as though the City had been evacuated it was so quiet, amid rumours and things, I just go to Luxor when needed, certainly not in the night time hours, go about my business, and leave, and will do this until I feel things pick up a bit.

At the moment though there is so many rumours and things, flying, about, that its hard to know what is going on.

[timetraveller]

I think TT that the ex pats are just keeping themselves to themselves and not getting involved with the scene at the moment, which is wise to do so. I was in Luxor yesterday to pick up a parcel, and it looked as though the City had been evacuated it was so quiet, amid rumours and things, I just go to Luxor when needed, certainly not in the night time hours, go about my business, and leave, and will do this until I feel things pick up a bit.

At the moment though there is so many rumours and things, flying, about, that its hard to know what is going on.

Thanks for the update Choc, but should you be replying to A-Four? I know what's happening in Luxor. Thanks all the same.

[A-Four]

Enjoy your stay in Bournemouth A Four! You are breathing the air just 6 miles from me,..............and what Drizzly, windy, dark, dingy, dank, dire, un-summer like air it is tonight!

Being that they are going to sell that 'factory' you work in, pull it down and sell the land to the highest bidder, I have taken a keen interest on that other piece of land, smaller I admit, at the top of the hill, overlooking the bay.................Well I am sure, if they are selling yours, they are sure to have a price on that also. Like your local council and health authority I say sod the locals and leave everything to the free market,......what. .

Air alot fresher here than London. .