The Egyptian male.

What is it like to live in Luxor? Share your experiences of Luxor's culture.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:01 am

Not that I've seen, but if he has become Muslim out of conviction, then I have to agree with ST, hypothetically. Why become Muslim and continue to string a girl along like that? Muslim or not, it's not right. So really it doesn't make a difference. The honorable thing is to marry her or cut off the relationship. It's not respectable regardless of his religion to carry on like this.

But I'm not going to say he SHOULD marry her because I see serious problems for both parties in this relationship if it were turned into marriage. One or both will regret it in the long run if they did, so really my advice would be to cut it off. The "right" thing and the "smart" thing are two different things in this case.



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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Dusak » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:22 am

Well it certainly seems that I have created a long and stimulating conversation. Both myself and friend mutually agree that things went pear shaped as a result of us both, not any one individual that night, including the one spoken of.

As I stated, we arrived last, our seats were already allocated by the English friend with the Egyptian. Knowing her as I do, she would of done this so they, [the Egyptians] may have felt more comfortable having some one close to talk to in their native tongue, but I'm only guessing.

Up to the point of sitting down, the two other then friends had not given me cause to sever my friendships with them. They had absolutely nothing to do with these posted events.

My friend knew all at the table and had socialized many a time with them. Why would anything in that first instance look iffy, want for a better word. There was one stranger there, him. He did not come with an 'iffy' stamp on his head. He was accepted at face value.

I would never put any one in an uncomfortable situation, especially one that I cared for.

Who is to say when the right time to marry another person is the 'right time?' We have our own reasons for doing this, and respect to the ones that disagree with that, it is, after all, our business not yours. And when that day does come it will be welcomed by us both. There will be no children, I do not need any more, my own proved that point, my friend has never wanted any, she just wants to enjoy our lives together, be it just eating a meal together, sitting in front of a good film or enjoying a summers night in the garden, and of course, going out with my true friends, friends that welcomed her into their lives a long time ago.

Every point raised here, for or against is valid, and most have been voiced by us both when talking about this unfortunate event.

No one is stringing anyone along, a suggestion that I do not really take to.

Although I have no interest to criticize your views GD, views that I did expect to see, why is it that when I read your replies I can only imagine myself and friend sitting alone on the back row of pews in a long forgotten and abandoned church with you standing in the pulpit, finger pointing towards us.

To set the record straight, I converted to Islam four years ago at the collage of Islamic teachings here in Luxor. I was interviewed for three hours, having had to give my views and reasons on wanting to become part of Islam. Why I felt the need to convert, how would I take on the challenges of fellow Muslims when questioned about my conversion. I was excepted, had to repeat an oath three times in Arabic, which was long and difficult to remember for me. I was given a certificate stating that I was now Muslim. Then I could have it registered at Mosque HQ in Cairo anytime within my lifetime. I did arrange to go with my friends brother, but then the revolution kicked off so didn't fancy the trip.

So I would very much appreciate that no one feels the need to use the respect card on me or my friend. We live by the book.

It is a great pity that once again religion has had to entrench itself within yet another post, but I must say, it has been an interesting one for both of us.

My jaw hurts from the pummeling so far received, and no doubt there are many more hits on their way.

As I stated earlier, mistakes were made and I will be making certain that these are never repeated. I shoulder most of the blame but have to say that we will not be altering our lifestyles just to please others, although out here in the real world, our friendship has never been questioned by any that we know of.
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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by lotusflower » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:38 am

Glyphdoctor wrote:I know of more Christian couples with the female being Egyptian but there are some with Muslim husbands too. But this is mainly in Cairo.

I actually know a couple, British wife-Egyptian husband, they have been married almost 50 years now. His sister married a British Muslim male!

I've heard of this happening in Luxor once many years ago, but I was told the girl had a physical deformity that would have made it impossible for her to find an Egyptian husband, so the family was happy for her to find someone to marry her.
There is an English man married to a Muslim woman in Luxor and now they have a beautiful daughter who is now 2.. the age gap between them, he is is 22 years. older than her.. both are very happy.

Stef (aka Ahmed ) an English man is married to a Muslim woman in Luxor and they have a 4 year old son Hassan. there is an age gap again between them, he being 15 years older.

You are not really tuned in to real life here in Luxor!

If Dusak wants to get married to his lady friend it is very possible.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Robbo70 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:45 am

Dusak, to prevent a repeat of the incident, could you two not come up with a code word or phrase that alerts each other to not being comfortable with the surroundings or the conversation and help each other out. Obviously, not being kind and genteel like your good lady, I would have issued the 'Kirby kiss' but I understand not wanting to cause a scene.

When Omar isn't comfortable with company, he usually points out we have shopping to do, an errand to run, or a member of family to meet and tells me we are running a little late. It gives me time to remove myself politely without causing any problems. (He will wait until we are back home before telling me what the problem was to ensure I don't go back :lol: )

There are many ways to discreetly remove yourselves from a situation without causing a ruck, and this may be a lot easier for your lady friend, if you have a pre arranged phrase or comment.
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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Luxor Pharoahs » Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:05 pm

when two people are in love, why should obstacles be put in the way?

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:20 pm

It seems to me that, in sharing this particular incident in his life, Dusak has highlighted a number of issues. If he hasn't highlighted them then responses have. He may be taking some flack for it now but hopefully there are elements in the original post and replies that could be helpful to him and to fellow readers at some point in time.

What the whole thing illustrates is that nothing in life is easy. When you add cultural and religious differences (not just the possibility of being from different religious backgrounds but also the way any religion is applied in daily life both personally and publicly), age differences, social status etc. everything can get even more complicated - or can be perceived more complex. (I am not saying all these apply in the case but they are among the common, general, problems and I'm sure there are many I've not mentioned).

It is always easy from the outside looking in to have answers, make comments, point out the rights and wrongs, but unless we are the ones living with, and dealing with, the situation at the time then we can only hope that our suggestions and comments are of benefit and do not hinder the situation further. Live is one continuous learning curve and that applies to relationships with family, friends, acquaintances, and those we want close to us in our lives.
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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Who2 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:55 pm

I admit I skip thru these posts but remember my 'alphacuriobet and 'friends really reads as fiends in r = reparation beware of friends..:cool:
Ps: If she's really worth it take 'the pledge and marry the woman you only live once or twice or thrice who know's ?
Pss: just thinking about it "What could go wrong ? 'Just about everything but 'fear never won fair lady and only the good die young….
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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:38 pm

I noticed a movement from his hands that caused me to look over the top of the screen. He had taken hold of her hand with both of his.
@Dusak - I keep thinking about this. Why do you think this Egyptian guy was so bold as to actually touch your Lady Friend via taking hold of her hands?

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Scottishtourist » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:25 pm

LovelyLadyLux wrote:
I noticed a movement from his hands that caused me to look over the top of the screen. He had taken hold of her hand with both of his.
@Dusak - I keep thinking about this. Why do you think this Egyptian guy was so bold as to actually touch your Lady Friend via taking hold of her hands?
I don't think he was bold LLL.
I just see him as ignorant and rude.

He was sat at a table with Europeans.He accepted their protocol.He's obviously "touched up"many a European woman and has not been reproached in any way for his behaviour(isn't he "married"to one?)
So..he has chanced his arm!He has seen an Egyptian woman in same scenario as he is...and has applied his own warped idea of of what is acceptable behaviour towards her!

P.s..the guy I referred to earlier in the coffee shop incident wouldn't have dared such a thing!I'll give him credit for that!I met him at Gaddis karaoke.On second nite,my Egyptian friends joined us,a husband and wife.
I invited him to sit with us..but he refused point-blank!
He did not know the Egyptian lady in our company..so remained with his friends!

As for any notion entering his head to actually touch her?Her husband would have killed him!

I didn't understand it at the time with me being a European and used to the concept of "the more,the merrier."
I do now!

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:49 pm

Then let me advance this a bit further.

The Egyptian man grabs the hands of an Egyptian woman.

WHAT typically would an Egyptian woman do? So why was this guy so confident this Egyptian woman would accept (not act out or reproach at a magnitude 10 immediately) his touch?

Why are such ingrained responses by both suddenly non-existent? I've got a few socialized ingrained responses in my repertoire and they'd come out asap with force regardless of who I was with and where I was. Why has every conditioned response suddenly failed?

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Dusak » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:49 pm

Robbo70 wrote:Dusak, to prevent a repeat of the incident, could you two not come up with a code word or phrase that alerts each other to not being comfortable with the surroundings or the conversation and help each other out. Obviously, not being kind and genteel like your good lady, I would have issued the 'Kirby kiss' but I understand not wanting to cause a scene.

When Omar isn't comfortable with company, he usually points out we have shopping to do, an errand to run, or a member of family to meet and tells me we are running a little late. It gives me time to remove myself politely without causing any problems. (He will wait until we are back home before telling me what the problem was to ensure I don't go back :lol: )

There are many ways to discreetly remove yourselves from a situation without causing a ruck, and this may be a lot easier for your lady friend, if you have a pre arranged phrase or comment.
Living the life that I have, it has become evident that even the impossible is possible. We actually laughed a little over this on the phone tonight. She did try to get my attention by kicking my leg, but her legs were to short to reach mine.

This is a very difficult thing to explain, one that you needed to be present to see all the possible ways that the night could of played out. Do not forget, this was just a normal evening, the only difference being was that it was Xmas eve and a friend was bringing her new boyfriend to the larger group of friends for the first time.

It is obvious to me now that this man is motivated by the need to have sex, going off the PM's that I have received from folk that recognized him from what I wrote. Both of use are not naive in what people may think of our personal side of our relationship, but they would be wrong, but that does not stop them thinking it. It is one that is purely platonic and will remain so until we marry.

Personally I've have had no problems building up to the marriage proposal, after all, she is no different than any other woman, she will say yes or no. The first time she said no, the reasons being that she was positive that her family would not allow it, secondly that what I think would be a good life with her would or could turn out to be much different from what I was expecting because of the religious and time set social differences, life styles and what they see as 'normal' compered to my normal.

I have only heard of one English man marrying a Muslim girl, the marriage was solid but they did have problems with her family so left the country. I can never understand the few people that have said ''Your marrying a Muslim!'' ''Are you stupid or what.'' Or words to that affect. Yes, there have been minor hurdles to navigate around, but not of any great importance. Even the religious side of things was not the daunting barrier that most think it is.

When I went to the collage of Islamic teachings I was dragged in, no accompanied, by my friend and her two sisters. They spoke on my behalf until they brought in a teacher that spoke English. They looked terrified as I was interviewed, me, I took it all in my stride. But many questions were asked of my friend, her two sisters not able to talk, they seemed to be uncomfortable in this environment for reasons I never found out and never asked about. As this was the time she had excepted me as her future husband she was quite open in stating this fact, so this lead to an even more weighty questioning from the Sheikh that ran the collage. The one thing that was evident to me prior to my friend talking about our future marriage was the atmosphere took on a more relaxed feeling when I stated, when asked, did I have any children of my own. On confirming that I had two sons seemed to seal the deal so to speak. You can each form your own opinions as to why this would be.

There is nothing strange or mysterious about an Englishman marrying a Muslim woman, may be a bit unusual, but nothing to write home about. And let us be honest, because she is Muslim and my former wife refuses to give me the divorce that I have asked for, then such a marriage is possible, not so if she was Coptic Christian. So two people can live happily with each other, sanctioned by Islam.

I know that in later years I will be cared for if I require that care, she will receive a life that all women are entitled to, one of respect, love and devotion. We will be utterly content with each other and I know we will have a good life but we both know that it will not be a bed of roses all of the time.

As for the suggestion of having a codeword to prevent this from happening again, with the exception of ordering her food, no Arabic will be spoken in the future and she will only sit next to me away from any other Egyptian in our company, not that this is a regular occurrence anyway.

On this particular night we had first gone to the supermarket close by. Walking back to the restaurant she asked me if I thought it would be OK to hold hands in public while we walked. I said nothing, took hold of her hand and carried on walking. For me, this very small concern she had as to what was deemed 'acceptable' behavior by her in the public eye just enforced why I wanted her in my life.

As I was reviewing my post before submitting this I noted your question LLL. All I can say in relation to my friends non reaction, and we have spoken at length about it, is that she didn't know how to react at the time, never being faced with such a situation in her whole life. She couldn't take it all in, plus she did not want to cause a scene in front of the others. Everyone reacts different, if this had been a Western woman, all hell would of broken loose, but she is Muslim, and there is still that fear embedded in the back of her brain that tells her she is not allowed to question an Egyptian male, no matter what he says or does. She finally got the courage to stand up and walk away. She has done a great deal of crying over this. She thinks that she has let me down, still can not understand why he would talk to her in this way. She blames herself more than blaming him. When we are together she has total freedom of speech, something she takes advantage of when I act like a complete d*** over something. Now she knows better, she will react if this happens again, which is unlikely.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Scottishtourist » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:25 pm

I actually think you're saying TOO much about this Dusak.

I don't think either you or your friend were in any way responsible!
Truth is that you were unaware that your "European"friend's friend would turn out to be such an ********!You know her,and didn't expect THIS!

I've had it too!I have sat innocently in hotels enjoying shows,etc.Next thing I know some random Egyptian male has sat next to me and started taking my hand,touching my knee..talking all kinds of gibberish with me!
I react..cos that's my prerogative!I am NOT Egyptian..so it is easy for me to tell him that I don't accept this kind of behaviour.
Your friend is different.She has been brought up as a good Muslim girl and her exposure to Europeans and their ways has maybe been mainly confined to you.A decent man who offers respect and affection.

I don't think you should be talking to US about it.I really think that you should be explaining to your European friend that she has to not only speak to her Egyptian boyfriend/husband about rules of etiquette when in company of foreigners..but also remind him of the rules when in company of other Egyptians,especially females!

HE has upset her,HE has upset you.That's enough for me!
Why stay silent?Say your piece to the European woman,don't hold back!
Time she knew...don't you think?

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Glyphdoctor » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:39 am

One does not need to pass an interview and get approval of a shaykh to BE Muslim. Technically, you don't even need a witness other than God. It's a matter of belief only.

I had to get a paper from al-Azhar saying I was Muslim even though my marriage license said I was Muslim, in order to get a visa via my husband, because the visa office asked for it. I didn't get asked any questions other than what had to be filled out on the certificate itself.

They ask a Western male questions because he shows up with a girl he wants to marry but CAN'T unless he officially converts and it is registered in the proper office. They probably would not give such a grilling if he came of his own accord instead of being brought by the girl. A Western woman can freely marry without conversion, so there is no reason to doubt her sincerity. So of course they question his motivations in order to protect her honor. But whether they believe his intentions or not is irrelevant, it's still a matter between him and God whether he really is sincere about it or not.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Glyphdoctor » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:45 am

LovelyLadyLux wrote:Then let me advance this a bit further.

The Egyptian man grabs the hands of an Egyptian woman.

WHAT typically would an Egyptian woman do? So why was this guy so confident this Egyptian woman would accept (not act out or reproach at a magnitude 10 immediately) his touch?
Typically she would avoid being in such an environment in the first place, because just being there is enough to give men like this a reason to suspect she would be receptive.

But if she found herself in it, she would not make it known to others because she knows that others will likely say/believe that she did something to provoke it. He knows that and she knows that, so that to some extent makes him emboldened because he knows the blame will fall on her.

However, that is precisely why a woman needs to be careful.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Glyphdoctor » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:50 am

Now the ex-wife is suddenly still a wife??? The only reason you can't get a divorce is not because she doesn't file for it, which is her right to not do, but because you don't bother to go back to the UK and ask for it yourself, because you could do that. Why not book a trip to the UK to get a divorce and visit your son at the same time? Kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.

And when do we hear about the green orfi paper? It's the only piece of the puzzle that would make any of this believable at all.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Dusak » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:11 am

No matter what I say GD, you will always pick it too pieces or give another example that you have experienced in an attempt to prove me wrong, or this is as I view your comments. Not every case is the same, not all conduct such things the same way, that does not mean that your way was set in concrete or mine was.

I suggested that we could divorce via post, documents sent by the likes of Fed-ex and witnessed by my lawyer, but she refused until I paid even more money over to her after I had paid well over and above what I would be required to pay to her in the UK which was tens of thousands, money that I could of stopped being transferred but gave the go-ahead to the bank. I could of not sent over £20,000+ worth of gold that I had bought her over the 25 years of our marriage that she had left and cashed it in here. After all, what could she have done about it, but no, I paid a friend £100 to take it back to the UK to send to her by secure post. I could of dumped or given away all her belongings that she left, but I paid 4.5 thousand Le to fly it via Air Egypt then on to Manchester then by road to her address.

I refuse to pay any more, so we will never get a divorce while she is ruled by her greed. I did offer to pay all the costs, which in the UK are quite high. I paid all her costs for her to come to Egypt two years ago to sign important papers plus all her legal costs. When she closed the joint account in the UK when she left, doing this out of spite, an action that made things difficult for me over here until I sorted it all out. I told her to keep all the money in this joint account. I have been extremely generous over her decision to leave and can hold my head up high. I am not going to waste another £1,000 going over there to sort it out on the off chance that she will change her mind again and want even more money before she signed. I have paid even more money over for her interests in our property, giving me sole ownership, again paying all the legal cost over here. Enough is enough. So there you have it, my reasons for not doing so.

ST has beaten me to it, suggesting that I finish this as you have continually bordered on the edge of turning this post into a slanging match with your comments. What has been done can not be undone so as far as I'm concerned I have finished with this topic, but you and others feel free to continue it amongst yourselves. And I say that in the nicest of terms.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by newcastle » Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:23 am

I know you've had enough of this thread Dusak but I'd just mention (although I expect you know this):

You can divorce your wife, with or without her consent, after 5 years' separation.

Even though an Egyptian muslim can have up to 4 wives, I think the position for you, should you wish to marry your friend, is not quite so simple and a divorce from your existing wife might be a necessary prerequisite.

I'm afraid that, without marriage, your relationship - any relationship - with your muslimah friend is going to regarded as "illicit" by other muslims. A cross you (and she) will have to bear....if that's not mixing religious metaphors.

Good luck :up

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Dusak » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:12 pm

I know that I said I was finished with this pose newcastle, but I respect you as a member and you raise a valid point that some may find interesting. We have looked into this and our marriage, when we choose to, is fully sanctioned and we have been told that there will be no problems as long as our blood tests are in order, which I know will be.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Glyphdoctor » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:24 pm

Newcastle-About 5 or 6 years ago, there was what could be called a legal incompatibility between the paper the Egyptian government wanted from the US embassy for Americans to marry here and the information that the Federal government was even in a position to vouch for, since marriage is not regulated at all by the Federal government in the US, but rather is a right of individual states to set the laws about marriage and divorce and for local municipal governments to record marriages. This took well over a year to resolve, but in the meantime, American women and non-Muslim American men were not allowed to marry in Egypt. However, I heard about an American man who married during this time without having to get a paper from the embassy. I would assume the logic being as a Muslim, even if he had one wife in America, he still could take 3 more.

However, the marriage license does require you list any existing or past marriages on it.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by HEPZIBAH » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:03 pm

Luxor Pharoahs wrote:when two people are in love, why should obstacles be put in the way?
In many inter-cultural/interfaith relationships it is not so much a case of obstacles being put in the way so much as those obstacles already being there. It's how you deal with those obstacles that proves the love and commitment.
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