The Egyptian male.

What is it like to live in Luxor? Share your experiences of Luxor's culture.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by BENNU » Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:24 pm

Dusak wrote: It truly amazes me that some Egyptian men think that when they speak of others this way, in regards to a European having an Egyptian partner, that that Egyptian partner is not going to repeat what has been said.

... thinking that these sometimes disparaging remarks will be just be between the two of them, they being so called brothers in arms.
They would be brothers in arms if they had the same intentions and views on older foreign partners. Young people from poor countries, married to Europeans without an honest attraction do get together to enjoy each others company, all over the world. He must consider her such an Egyptian female and others will. I think you should both find your own ways to avoid any future misunderstandings.



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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by carrie » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:26 pm

Dusak I really don't know enough about Egyptian women to know if she felt it was impossible for her to create a scene, maybe she felt things would escalate beyond control if she did. I as a European would have put him very firmly in his place, in Arabic so that his friends could understand what I was saying. Nothing nasty but reminding him of where he comes from and asking him to behave in a respectable manner. If your friend doesn't feel able to do that then it is your responsibility not to put her into that position ever again.
I feel really very sorry for people who have a decent Egyptian partner. Other Egyptians often look at them and presume that they are only there because of the money they are getting or hope to get, Europeans look at them and think oh there is another MMD. Either way they can't win.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:43 pm

One does not need to create a scene nor put up with **** like this. It's not either/or. Fake an illness and go home. The philanderer will get the message and you get yourself out of the situation. Easy peasy.

As for whose responsibility it is to prevent such things. Well, it's the family's responsibility to not allow their daughters or sisters to attend events with sleazeballs in attendance.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:53 pm

It's one of three things:

1-Dusak truly is naive
2-Dusak knows the score exactly but the only way he can live with it is to be in denial
3-Dusak knows the score exactly and just plays dumb for all of us

I'm sure this is not the first time something like this happened nor will it be the last.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me more times, seriously?

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:05 pm

carrie wrote:Dusak I really don't know enough about Egyptian women to know if she felt it was impossible for her to create a scene, maybe she felt things would escalate beyond control if she did. I as a European would have put him very firmly in his place, in Arabic so that his friends could understand what I was saying. Nothing nasty but reminding him of where he comes from and asking him to behave in a respectable manner. If your friend doesn't feel able to do that then it is your responsibility not to put her into that position ever again.
I think you are being a wee bit unfair here Carrie.

I don't think it's Dusaks responsibility not to put her in this situation!

He invited her along for a meal and to enjoy a nice nite.It really isn't his fault that a few ignorant people took advantage of the situation and decided to "waste"the whole experience for her!
It is they who are not adult.It is they who have totally misconstrued the gesture.

I blame the stupid European woman who decided that her errant Egyptian husband/partner would actually have had something positive to contribute to the evening!As GD says..it is him who is having "affair"with someone else.Showing no respect whatsoever for his wife.And,the European partner goes along with this?Well more fool her?
There's old saying.."fool me once,shame you"..."fool me twice,shame me."
He's just gone and shown himself up in a bad light.He has shown no respect whatsoever for a fellow Egyptian.He has been ignorant,unsociable,and has shown his true colours!

P.s Dusak..when I come back to Luxor,I would really like to meet you and your lady friend.Maybe then she will see that "Europeans"are not all ignorant or naive!

Some of us are actually quite nice,we don't talk "dirty",nor do we disrespect them!
They're people with feelings,respect,standards and morals!

This is not YOUR fault.

You did something with the best of intentions.You couldn't possibly know how the evening was gonna "pan"out,and that there would be ignorant ********* sharing your table!

It's very unfortunate..but rise above it..and tell your Egyptian lady friend to hold her head high!x

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by carrie » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:20 pm

ST I am very sure that Dusak's friend will "hold her head high" there is no earthly reason why she shouldn't and I am quite sure that she doesn't need to be told to.
I am sorry D but I do hold you responsible you took her into a situation with your so called friends where she was made to feel uncomfortable granted that you didn't realise how things would turn out all I can say is that some of your friends are not very nice and they associate with people who I would not want my fiance to be in the company of. She has my greatest sympathy and please tell her that not all European women here are as silly as those women.
Happy New Year to you and your friend.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:01 pm

I would distinguish between fault and responsibility. He may be at fault for poor judgment, and his long rambling defense of infidelity in marriage as an excuse above is a testament to that, but he isn't in a legal position of responsibility in this situation.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:22 pm

Glyphdoctor wrote:I would distinguish between fault and responsibility. He may be at fault for poor judgment, and his long rambling defense of infidelity in marriage as an excuse above is a testament to that, but he isn't in a legal position of responsibility in this situation.
No he's not GD.That's the great shame here.
He really should put himself into the legal responsibility mode and marry her.
I agree with you on this one.

The sooner..the better.
He's living in a Muslim country,he's in relationship with a Muslim woman.
So for everyones sake..do the right thing,and stop subjecting her to European ways without legal protection!

Is she was your wife..I don't think there would be any story to tell!

So..what are you waiting for?

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:09 pm

You do not suddenly find yourself on those levels. I avoid situtions in which I would never have found myself had it not been for the "wonderful husbands" brought to a party by women in denial and other creeps. One look from such a character is enough for me to stop him from even talking to me. It works - all over the world - because they know what they are doing, and as they sense that they will be getting nowhere, they do not want to cause that scene
Couldn't have said it better.

I think with any mixed race, for lack of a better word, couple there are usually very specific and known ground rules i.e. we only speak English when we're out with English speaking people. Very impolite to be having side bar conversations in another language when the majority of people at the table are not Arabic or whatever speaking. I'd say that it would have been Dusak's responsibility to have set up these type of ground rules eons ago so his lady friend wouldn't have been caught when they are out in social situations.

In the scenario Dusak presented there seems to be overlap or confusion of cultural norms that were just plain rude. I highly doubt in Egyptian society that an Egyptian man would have touched Dusak's Lady Friend or grabbed her hands and if he did I bet the reaction by the woman would have been extremely immediate and clear as would the reaction by her husband.

By the same token if we're in English society at social gathering around a table we don't have secret sidebar conversations at the table. That is rude. If it was 2 Russians or Germans and they started up a conversation that continued on for some time I hardly think it would have been taken as appropriate. Am pretty sure the English speakers would have been giving off clues and cues they didn't like it that others were speaking a different language at the table for a prolonged period. Same same if 2 English speakers suddenly decide to start speaking in whispers such that others can't hear what they're saying. Makes others feel uncomfortable so IMO soon as this guy started up in Arabic it all could have been nipped in the bud with a smiling face and reminder that "English" needs to be spoken. AND if Dusak's Lady Friend had affirmed this and had also insisted on immediately translating into English and ONLY replying in English I doubt this would have continued.

Dusak's Lady Friend obviously doesn't know that this is rude in English speaking society. She obviously doesn't know what is appropriate within English social culture and if her relationship with Dusak is to be successful then "THEY" need to be talking about and setting parameters for things like this or end up living without friends. And if this Egyptian lady friend was a mature responsible female WHY would be even listening beyond word one to any personal questions about whether or not Dusak drank, how he was in bed etc etc etc especially when this Egyptian man was obviously with his Own Girl Friend (THAT is yet another discussion ;) ) Would she have listened beyond word 1 if Dusak was her Egyptian husband? This wasn't a 1 sentence conversation this was a L O N G discussion at a social gathering about a table. Nobody considered how the others at the table felt with an active Arabic conversation going on beside them?

Seems to be that a very very short snap of putting this guy in his place immediately would have stopped a long session of discomfort and ill feelings later.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:05 pm

Dusak should marry her!
End of!

What's he waiting for?
He has intimated that the relationship is a good one.He has spoken of her with love and affection.He has endeavoured to protect her from unsuitable situations..and has been upset when she has been subjected to these situations!

In my view,he is taking on the role of a husband!So why is he not being one legally?

Ok,some may argue that it's only a piece of paper..and that a little piece of paper won't change the relationship.
Well,I disagree!If it's only seen as a piece of paper..then why NOT do it?
Why not take on the legal responsibility?

It's a perfect solution..and to hell with all these muddled views of European ideas/mindsets,etc.

It is a legal paper and procedure.It offers protection..and it also is seen as something of worth and value and would possibly stop these idiots from pouncing on an unmarried Egyptian woman and seeing her as someone who is "up for it!"

You are not living in Europe Dusak.You are and should be bound by the rules,customs and values of the country you are living in!
Therefore,you should abide by these rules and decide what you want to be!
A loving husband with a Muslim wife?Or a European with a "western"mind who will always have to deal with people who find difficulty with your relationship with an Egyptian woman?

Only you can make the choice.In my view,it's a non-brainer!
You have found THE person..and if you keep procrastinating..you'll lose her!

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:10 pm

@ST - I believe Dusak has written in other posts that his Lady Friend has obligations to her father so can't marry him

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:14 pm

A few of my Egyptian friends also had family obligations LLL
That didn't stop them getting married.

Where there's a will..there's a way!

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by newcastle » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:20 pm

My Dear Dusak

Your relationship with your lady friend is unusual, possibly unique, in conservative rural Egypt.

Whether you, I or any other non-Egyptian thinks it's ok is irrelevant. Unless the two of you retire from society (and possibly not even then) you will be subject to gossip and the occasional crass behaviour you have encountered.

It's rare to find me agreeing with ST but she's right....marry the woman.

What possible 'obligations' to her father can outweigh your respective personal happiness?

Yours

A. Pragmatist

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Brian Yare » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:35 pm

While the marriage of an Egyptian male to a foreign female happens quite a lot, whether properly or orfi, I don't think I know of any Egyptian females here who are married to foreign males.

I am sure that I will be corrected by hundreds who know differently!

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by lotusflower » Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:56 pm

Brian Yare wrote:While the marriage of an Egyptian male to a foreign female happens quite a lot, whether properly or orfi, I don't think I know of any Egyptian females here who are married to foreign males.

I am sure that I will be corrected by hundreds who know differently!
2 egyptian \Muslin women in Luxor that I know of.married to English men. the men being a lot older than the women... both of the Egyptian women now have children.

Dusak you have to think of your future with small children as no doubt she will want children.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:48 pm

Brian Yare wrote:While the marriage of an Egyptian male to a foreign female happens quite a lot, whether properly or orfi, I don't think I know of any Egyptian females here who are married to foreign males.

I am sure that I will be corrected by hundreds who know differently!
I don't personally know of any either Brian.

But..I think I recognise the couple Dusak mentions in his post.The Christian lady and her older English husband.
If they are the couple I'm thinking about,then I have seen them together in a social setting (do they have two young daughters?not children,young women?),and they looked perfectly happy together and devoted to each other.

I was told their names by an ex-pat in hotel,but won't divulge it on open forum.

Can I just add that nothing unkind was said about them.They sat as a family.No-one bothered them..and they bothered no-one!Just a family enjoying spending time together!

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:00 am

ST-Both parties have to be Muslim for marriage. Otherwise it is a completely moot point. You can't even have an engagement without the male being Muslim, so again it's a moot point. Unless the male actually starts to believe in Islam and converts, there shouldn't be any relationship, end of discussion. We can have Keefy do one of his informal surveys and get on his motorcycle and ask 100 people in the villages and they will all say the same.

As for the social event, when there are two seats left at the table, and one is next to a male and one is next to a female, one sits next to the same gender person. Whether it is family, friends, professional colleagues, that's just how 100% of Egyptians who have any sense of etiquette would handle it. Again, I'm sure Keefy could bring you that answer.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:04 am

I know of more Christian couples with the female being Egyptian but there are some with Muslim husbands too. But this is mainly in Cairo.

I actually know a couple, British wife-Egyptian husband, they have been married almost 50 years now. His sister married a British Muslim male!

I've heard of this happening in Luxor once many years ago, but I was told the girl had a physical deformity that would have made it impossible for her to find an Egyptian husband, so the family was happy for her to find someone to marry her.

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by newcastle » Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:15 am

Glyphdoctor wrote:ST-Both parties have to be Muslim for marriage. Otherwise it is a completely moot point. You can't even have an engagement without the male being Muslim, so again it's a moot point. Unless the male actually starts to believe in Islam and converts, there shouldn't be any relationship, end of discussion. We can have Keefy do one of his informal surveys and get on his motorcycle and ask 100 people in the villages and they will all say the same.

As for the social event, when there are two seats left at the table, and one is next to a male and one is next to a female, one sits next to the same gender person. Whether it is family, friends, professional colleagues, that's just how 100% of Egyptians who have any sense of etiquette would handle it. Again, I'm sure Keefy could bring you that answer.
Didn't Dusak mention he'd become a muslim some time ago ?

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Re: The Egyptian male.

Post by newcastle » Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:15 am

Glyphdoctor wrote:ST-Both parties have to be Muslim for marriage. Otherwise it is a completely moot point. You can't even have an engagement without the male being Muslim, so again it's a moot point. Unless the male actually starts to believe in Islam and converts, there shouldn't be any relationship, end of discussion. We can have Keefy do one of his informal surveys and get on his motorcycle and ask 100 people in the villages and they will all say the same.

As for the social event, when there are two seats left at the table, and one is next to a male and one is next to a female, one sits next to the same gender person. Whether it is family, friends, professional colleagues, that's just how 100% of Egyptians who have any sense of etiquette would handle it. Again, I'm sure Keefy could bring you that answer.
Didn't Dusak mention he'd become a muslim some time ago ?

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