Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

What is it like to live in Luxor? Share your experiences of Luxor's culture.

Moderators: DJKeefy, 4u Network

User avatar
Goddess
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3356
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:14 pm
Location: Alex
Has thanked: 194 times
Been thanked: 102 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Goddess » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:09 pm

Yup.
I ain't getting it.
If it's such a drop in the ocean, what's the bloody point?
And where is the help for everyone else?


Image

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:40 pm

Brooke's mission is to help "working equines", and the ones in Luxor are unemployed. There are over a million equines still working outside the tourism industry in Egypt (in fact I hear one passing by right now) and if they have to prioritize their efforts I would say that is where they should be focusing.

User avatar
Shareen
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:24 pm
Location: UK (temporarily)
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Shareen » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:26 pm

I am not aware that feluccas are included in this...... not that mine would get a share, being foreign owned, but I am sure I would have heard.
I also understand that the caleches have already been granted a free licence renewal for one year... and I KNOW that feluccas and motor boats have not had the same concession.

Glyph, your figures make complete sense, not really worth the paper it is written on (the money that is) and it remains to be seen how much of it disappears before getting to the caleche drivers or their horses.

And wasn't the "symbolic" cheque handed over to the Caleche Boss?

In my personal opinion, its 1.5 million that is about to disappear into thin air, never to be seen again.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3795
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1594 times
Been thanked: 1695 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by A-Four » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:40 pm

Glyphdoctor wrote:Brooke's mission is to help "working equines", and the ones in Luxor are unemployed. There are over a million equines still working outside the tourism industry in Egypt (in fact I hear one passing by right now) and if they have to prioritize their efforts I would say that is where they should be focusing.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3795
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1594 times
Been thanked: 1695 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by A-Four » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:44 pm

Glyphdoctor wrote:Brooke's mission is to help "working equines", and the ones in Luxor are unemployed. There are over a million equines still working outside the tourism industry in Egypt (in fact I hear one passing by right now) and if they have to prioritize their efforts I would say that is where they should be focusing.

Glyphdoctor's return to this forum is like a breath of fresh air.

This person gives a wider picture of the true real life of Egypt, often instead of the usual (as I call it) cacoon life style, that seems to be so often seen in Luxor. Once every couple of weeks I would go to Quinna, just up the road from Luxor to do real shopping, there at that time were many horse and carriges, it was easy to see that these horses were cared for, and no turist ever visit that town. I would return to Luxor that evening often to see the dreadful condition and pain some of the horses suffered there, yet the place was full of tourists.

Glyph is correct, its not just the horses that Brooks care for, donkeys get a rough passage through life throughout Egypt, and much of the rest of the third world, thank God for Brooks...............It was not so long ago, that if you was the owner of a donkey in the Egyptian villages, it was the equivalent to having a rolls in the so called first world.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:56 pm

Well I'm not even in a village. I'm in Cairo but even here horses and donkeys are used to pull carts, mainly by fruit and vegetable sellers and garbage and bekia collectors. They aren't allowed in all parts of Cairo or on most bridges but where they are allowed you still see them quite frequently. But the problem here is that they could and probably do get in traffic accidents and just the stress of having to keep up with the traffic probably is not good for their health.

I have a special fondness for the Brooke. When I first moved to Egypt 20 years ago I wrote a feature article for a local magazine about their operations in Luxor and the interaction with the tourists and caleche drivers and I spent a lot of time talking with the drivers about the situation they were in and at least then, I recall them all being very polite and friendly. At the time, tourism was very low, maybe not as bad as now, but they were suffering. I couldn't find any tourists to interview though pretty much so I wound up relying on the hospital guest book for their views. In fact, I recall that the vet on duty at the time told me that people would look for any medical excuse to bring their horse in for a few days stay as that would relieve them of having to feed the horse for a few days because there were no tourists to take rides anyway as the Brooke would cover the cost of the feed during that time.

LovelyLadyLux
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3252
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:27 am
Has thanked: 985 times
Been thanked: 2256 times
Canada

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:19 pm

Yup.
I ain't getting it.
If it's such a drop in the ocean, what's the bloody point?
And where is the help for everyone else?
@ Goddess - whenever money is handed out in a public fashion like this, here even if in reality it is such a pittance it doesn't DO anything, it makes the hander outer aka Government "Look Good." It gives the message to the people we care and are doing something to help you (make it through these tough times).

Almost always too little too late but it gives the impression coupled with an active act of giving that your gov't is there to help you.

As Glyph's figures note this pittance is hardly even a stop gap and once it is gone it is gone - but - what will live forever is that the Gov't Officials were there handing out over a MILLION in aid.

I think one aspect the government didn't think about is that this act is apt to be divisive as it targets and is very specific to one group of people. It definitely isn't all-inclusive or taking into consideration that other groups of workers are probably equally hurting too.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3795
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1594 times
Been thanked: 1695 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by A-Four » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:58 pm

A-Four wrote:
Glyphdoctor wrote:Brooke's mission is to help "working equines", and the ones in Luxor are unemployed. There are over a million equines still working outside the tourism industry in Egypt (in fact I hear one passing by right now) and if they have to prioritize their efforts I would say that is where they should be focusing.

Glyphdoctor's return to this forum is like a breath of fresh air.

This person gives a wider picture of the true real life of Egypt, often instead of the usual (as I call it) cacoon life style, that seems to be so often seen in Luxor. Once every couple of weeks I would go to Quinna, just up the road from Luxor to do real shopping, there at that time were many horse and carriges, it was easy to see that these horses were cared for, and no turist ever visit that town. I would return to Luxor that evening often to see the dreadful condition and pain some of the horses suffered there, yet the place was full of tourists.

Glyph is correct, its not just the horses that Brooks care for, donkeys get a rough passage through life throughout Egypt, and much of the rest of the third world, thank God for Brooks...............It was not so long ago, that if you was the owner of a donkey in the Egyptian villages, it was the equivalent to having a rolls in the so called first world.

Just checked in to see how many of the ex-pats in Luxor like my comment here, obviously they are holding back until the morning. Thanks Dendara, but like me, you don't count,......................... we are only tourists, and therefore know nothing. :wi :wi :wi .

User avatar
Dusak
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 5874
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
Location: LUXOR
Has thanked: 5895 times
Been thanked: 7328 times
Gender:
Thailand

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Dusak » Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:10 am

Perhaps it is just that us cocoon dwellers prefer to keep a low profile in what we do. Self appeasement, I think, is better left to the experts. The very fact that these caleche drivers wantonly deliver their steeds to Brooks doors, not through illness, but because there are no tourists so place the horses feed needs onto a charity's doorstep, so taking the service away from the genuine needy cases just goes to show how easy it is for then to abuse the system, and their willingness to be the abuser.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3795
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1594 times
Been thanked: 1695 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by A-Four » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:53 am

Its some years ago now, though I think one or two on here will remember. Where they now have a pigeon 'enclosure' within the grounds of the Old Winter Palace, they kept baby monkeys, confined to a small cage, for the 'entertainment' of tourist, but times changed, and so do opinions. Like the baby elephant that was once kept there, these were removed, by pressure bought by TOURISTS on the, then owners of that hotel, The Accor Group in France. I am proud to say, that I was one of the many who made strong protest to that company. Had we left our complaints with the Egyptian manager, they would probably still be there today.

User avatar
pdmlynek
Member
Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:46 am
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 68 times
Gender:
United States of America

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by pdmlynek » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:56 am

Sorry for the following naïve questions, but I got to ask:

To be perfectly honest, I do not see why people should be so upset that caleche drivers get this money. It seems to me a form of welfare during some tough times. Just exactly is so terrible about it?

Also, I am a bit puzzled about the attitude to caleches in general. Why are they “destroying the Tourist Trade”? Don’t tourists want to ride on caleches?
I am an experienced traveler, but a newbie to the Middle East.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Glyphdoctor » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:42 am

A large number of unlicensed ones showed up a couple years ago and with business already being down competition has gotten more fierce. So they can be aggressive toward tourists.

That said, some tourists can be very aggressive, sometimes physically, toward Egyptians. And no, I am not just talking about a certain forum member here. It happens a lot more than you would think and usually the tourists get away with it, which only leads to more bad blood between tourists and locals. And I have even seen British tour reps actually instruct tourists to say things to sellers and the like that they might encounter in ways that would be considered rude in Egyptian culture. The way of trying to sell things is no different if pitched at a foreigner or an Egyptian but an Egyptian knows how to gracefully decline. Tourists don't always know how to do so.

Tourists do have to put up with a lot of bad behavior in the week or two they spend in Egypt but just imagine if you were in the shoes of those working in the tourism industry and you have to put up with the bad behavior from tourists 52 weeks out of the year? I'm not saying be aggression toward tourists is excusable or a good thing, but I can totally understand how being abused constantly and relentlessly by a steady stream of tourists could affect someone's way of dealing with them.

User avatar
Ruby Slippers
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:14 pm
Has thanked: 424 times
Been thanked: 621 times
United Kingdom

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Ruby Slippers » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:08 am

Many years ago we were subjected to a lot of abuse over the fare after a very short calleche ride. Normal practice, I have since learned. :( But we have never taken a calleche ride since. A bit like tarring them all with the same brush I know, but not an experience I want to possibly repeat, so we steer clear. We are polite in our refusal of the services offered but extremely firm. We are just two tourists out of many, but experiences like ours have happened to thousands over the years, so maybe the money could be better used to set up a 'Charm School' - for calleche drivers! :lol:

User avatar
pdmlynek
Member
Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:46 am
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 68 times
Gender:
United States of America

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by pdmlynek » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:08 pm

Glyphdoctor wrote: ...
And I have even seen British tour reps actually instruct tourists to say things to sellers and the like that they might encounter in ways that would be considered rude in Egyptian culture. The way of trying to sell things is no different if pitched at a foreigner or an Egyptian but an Egyptian knows how to gracefully decline. Tourists don't always know how to do so.
...
Nobody in sales enjoys being turned down, and getting rude treatment simply because of being a salesman is very difficult. Sorry to ask such a newbie question and looking stupid here, but I got to ask:

What is the graceful way of declining in Egypt? I was planning on just doing what I do elsewhere, which is to smile, say something like asalamu aleikum, followed by shukran, and then just ignore the person. Is there a better way?
I am an experienced traveler, but a newbie to the Middle East.

Bombay
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 1990
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:57 pm
Location: Luxor
Has thanked: 1794 times
Been thanked: 1696 times
Egypt

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Bombay » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:10 pm

La shukran / no thank you.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Glyphdoctor » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:17 pm

Sorry, but don't say "La shukran." That's a translation of English, not proper Arabic. There is never a "la" on the beginning.

You just say "Shukran." Thanks. That's it. Put your hand on your heart too, that helps.

Even better is to say"mutashakkir" if you are a man or "mutashakkira" if you are a woman. They will actually think you know Arabic if you do rather than have been taught "shukran" as most tourists are taught (This tip came from a friend who worked at the pyramids for months on end and had to pass by the horse stables etc. every day. It seems to have worked quite well for her.)

User avatar
Dusak
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 5874
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
Location: LUXOR
Has thanked: 5895 times
Been thanked: 7328 times
Gender:
Thailand

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Dusak » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:19 pm

Since living here from the aftermath of revolution one, the vast majority of caleshe drivers have turned into a gang of verbally violent thugs that do not, in any way, shape or form, comply with any expected degree of respect from not only the dwindling tourist numbers, but their own people. They are a modern living example of an allowed gang of extortionists that roam the streets hunting for pray. The payment is, to my mind, a pacifier to keep those in command of this collective of rogues from creating problems for the City that the city can not be seen to have if they stand any chance of attracting the tourist back here. Hand on heart? No, firmly on the wallet with these miscreants.

I have a friend living here that has been stoned by an uncouth caleshe driver when saying a very polite no thank you to his offer for a ride. Another friend living here has had money demanded off her from the cash point. A tourist I met was upset that he had been horse whipped for declining the offer of a trip on his Caleshe. It is not uncommon to be told to f off when giving a polite no to them, no matter what language you say it in.

In times gone by they may have been the knights errant of the road, modern times they are the unregulated highway men [and kids.]
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3795
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1594 times
Been thanked: 1695 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by A-Four » Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:17 pm

For the benefit of Pdmlynek, you have read two comments on your request here, one from Dusak in Luxor and one from Glyph in Cairo, both live in Egypt. Glyph is correct what she says about the hassle at the old ticket area around the Pyramids at Giza, even I once lost my cool there, however there are few places in down town Cairo where you can get a horse and carriage these days, except Zamalak.

In Luxor where Dusak is, you are constantly bothered by these so called drivers, even if you live there, and the crazy thing is these know full well that you do not want their service, so I can readily understand his anger.

As a tourist, and a new one at that Pdmlynek, my advice is quite simple. You do not speak to these people at all, you do not want their service, so you don't even acknowledge them. When you are walking in the streets, walk on the pavement that is against the flow of traffic, this will cut down the hassle from both carriages and taxis.

After a few days, you may want to take the family for a carriage drive, choose one from your hotel, preferably an older man, tell him EXACTLY where you want to go, and come back. By this time you should have a good idea of distance from hotel to say, Karnack, so therefore have a good idea on price, (a lot less than New York), so ensure he knows you are paying him in LE and not $. Avoid conversation with the driver, you are there to enjoy the ride, and NO you do not want to buy anything, you have all the gifts you intend to buy. If you enjoy your drive tip the man 10 to 20%, after all you are a tourist.

Western people are always too polite in the Middle East, especially Egypt. If any Egyptian don't want to buy anything, they never enter into conversation, whether it be taxi driver, street seller,..........or what ever. I can never understand why so many ex-pats do not adopt the same manner.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Glyphdoctor » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:37 pm

The last time I went to the Pyramids was in June. Everything that the US embassy was warning people about at that time was completely true, and then some.

That said, the three times I have been in Aswan in the past year and a half or so there has been practically none of this hassle that exists in Luxor so one has to ask if the problem is really just because of lack of tourists or just some local bad habit in the city of Luxor.

And good advice about not getting in a conversation. I've gotten a lot of flak from women by asking how on earth they managed to get to the point of the taxi driver asking them to marry them. I don't see how any of the conversation you actually NEED to have with a taxi driver could wind up leading to such a proposal. Any questions that might have proceeded that one that could lead to a proposal they shouldn't have answered in the first place. It's not rude to not answer questions not related to getting to your destination.

LovelyLadyLux
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3252
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:27 am
Has thanked: 985 times
Been thanked: 2256 times
Canada

Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:58 pm

Every A-Four says re: caleche is totally spot on. I need to add in that if you decided to take a caleche or taxi for that matter to avoid hassle at the end of the ride it helps to establish the price BEFORE agreeing to the ride AND establish which currency you're talking about i.e. Egyptian LE vs British pounds vs USA $$.

Heed what Glyph is saying too - very important.

  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post
  • All Caleches
    by hatusu » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:20 am » in Places Not Recommended
    60 Replies
    1185 Views
    Last post by Luxor Pharoahs
    Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:33 am
  • 200 Million
    by carrie » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:01 am » in News and Sport
    3 Replies
    118 Views
    Last post by newcastle
    Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:55 pm
  • $800 million
    by Major Thom » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:41 am » in Know Egypt
    17 Replies
    1794 Views
    Last post by Who2
    Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:09 pm
  • A chance in a million.......
    by Who2 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:11 am » in Classifieds
    22 Replies
    5570 Views
    Last post by Horus
    Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:53 am
  • Lottery Win of $780 million
    by newcastle » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:31 pm » in General Discussions and Rants
    5 Replies
    117 Views
    Last post by Dusak
    Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:17 am