Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

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Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Bombay » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:27 pm

I am so angry I cannot type anything more.




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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:06 pm

Soooooooooo - all that money just handed over no strings attached and no problems with the caleche drivers attitudes or behaviours pointed out other than a request to "be good"? Wowwwwwww :( :( :(

The condition of the horses was, in many cases, awful and I have no problem whatsoever with feed being supplied to them and I'd of much preferred to see a central horse food depot set up where the drivers could go daily to get food for their horses and health needs of the horses met but to essentially reward the bad behavior of the drivers?

Very bad move and very bad precedent to have set up meaning the handing out of free money to one group. Now the felluca guys will line up, the waiters and on and on......

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by DJKeefy » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:11 pm

Minister of Tourism hand two checks for 1.5 million Egyptian pounds support for a year for the Calesh drivers to support their family with food supplies and their horses too. After handing the funds to the Calesh drivers boss, the minister said "This find on one condition which is to treat the guests in good manners and to make sure the drivers and their carriages are licensed."

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Bombay » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:16 pm

I have calmed down so I can type:
******* JOKE :!:

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:26 pm

Well what I am reading is a bit different. They are providing them (and the felucca people too) with basic foodstuff support on a monthly basis for one year. No one is getting a blank check or cash.

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Bombay » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:26 pm

Okay so maybe I ain't

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Bombay » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:29 pm

Glyphdoctor wrote:Well what I am reading is a bit different. They are providing them (and the felucca people too) with basic foodstuff support on a monthly basis for one year. No one is getting a blank check or cash.
So lets reward the people who have been destroying the Tourist Trade and driven so many away while we try to promote the town as a safe and enjoyable place to come to, yeah great plan.

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:35 pm

People have to eat, including the families of the drivers, no matter how boorish their behavior. The horses could be put to sleep. The money saved on feeding the horses could be used to invest in new non-tourism businesses that could provide employment for the out of work drivers. What bothers me is the amount of money that the government invests in keeping people doing nothing. And it's not just handouts like this but also the bloated government bureaucracy that has more workers than it needs and doesn't pay any of them more than enough to put a meal or two a day in their bellies.

And frankly, if you ask my opinion, every attempt by expats to bring tourism to Luxor in the past few years has been an abject failure and in some cases has done more harm than good. Bickering among yourselves in public forums about who cares more about Egypt makes the place perfectly unattractive and harping on about safety and forgetting what the real attractions are of Luxor that make people want to come here is just simply a joke. I don't care how many times you rattle on about how it is "safe" in Luxor, none of you are going beyond that and promoting its actual attractions. If you want to argue over how best to promote Luxor and call eachother names in the process, please set up a private group to do it where only local tourism business owners are allowed to hash out what to do. Arguing about it in front of potential tourists and letting see the foul way you treat one another probably makes them think twice about how you might treat them if they were to come to visit. Thank God there are no Egyptians bickering with one another in foreign languages online like this to make Luxor look bad in the eyes of tourists.
Last edited by Glyphdoctor on Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Mad Dilys » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:40 pm

Let us hope that at least it is given to licenced calleche drivers.

About 18 months ago I was at the Spring dock and counted out of 43 calleches awaiting the boats, guess how many with licence plates?

Three. :td

They should be properly licenced, ideally the driver the horse and the rig should be considered at a unit.

The driver should be easily identified and have his photo attached to a licence, the horse should be identified both by description and by ID chipping and the rig should be inspected for Health and safety and also have a permentant ID branded into it.

If spot checks shows that the terms are being abused the licence should be withdrawn.

S'scuse me.................I just saw a pig fly by. 8)
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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:15 pm

Maybe this is already in place in Luxor I just don't know - but - I'd assume that somebody at some time arrived at a number - the number of caleche that equals the needs of the tourist trade. This should be the number of licences that are handed out, renewed yearly based upon condition of horse, buggy, driver and complaints received (and there should be some known way for tourist complaints to be registered)

Spot checks with immediate fines and confiscation ability should be there. If there is no licence and you're out there and caught you could lose your horse and caleche plus face fines (escalating scale idea) however any law is only as good as enforcement and I mean serious enforcement that can't be bribed away.

As far as worrying about the families of the caleche drivers - wellllll - ALL families need to be considered. In tough times I don't think that one should be able to cherry pick occupations to help and not others. Guess Egypt needs to introduce the great welfare state.....

All in all it is really complex - can't let people starve but handing out freebie money isn't necessarily a solution either.

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Bombay » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:00 am

Glyphdoctor wrote:People have to eat, including the families of the drivers, no matter how boorish their behavior. The horses could be put to sleep. The money saved on feeding the horses could be used to invest in new non-tourism businesses that could provide employment for the out of work drivers. What bothers me is the amount of money that the government invests in keeping people doing nothing. And it's not just handouts like this but also the bloated government bureaucracy that has more workers than it needs and doesn't pay any of them more than enough to put a meal or two a day in their bellies.

And frankly, if you ask my opinion, every attempt by expats to bring tourism to Luxor in the past few years has been an abject failure and in some cases has done more harm than good. Bickering among yourselves in public forums about who cares more about Egypt makes the place perfectly unattractive and harping on about safety and forgetting what the real attractions are of Luxor that make people want to come here is just simply a joke. I don't care how many times you rattle on about how it is "safe" in Luxor, none of you are going beyond that and promoting its actual attractions. If you want to argue over how best to promote Luxor and call eachother names in the process, please set up a private group to do it where only local tourism business owners are allowed to hash out what to do. Arguing about it in front of potential tourists and letting see the foul way you treat one another probably makes them think twice about how you might treat them if they were to come to visit. Thank God there are no Egyptians bickering with one another in foreign languages online like this to make Luxor look bad in the eyes of tourists.
Yes people have to eat including the staff of all the establishments that pay money to the Ministry of Tourism every year and taxes every month. These pay nothing and yet have been systematically destroying the tourism industry in this town. To try and get them to change their ways, I am sorry you stand a better chance of asking the horse not to take a **** while working.

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:38 am

I believe that most of the caleche drivers are family businesses in that great great granddad was a driver, granddad was a driver, dad and then son are drivers. Am positive these families have adapted to the style of work life they are living and have each learned from each other. Am positive Dad has rewarded Son for a good score of $$ from a tourist. Once rewarded why would this behavior change and without specific alternate strategies of how to be polite and professional with tourists taught, learned and practiced nothing is going to change with these drivers. A simple promise to be nice isn't nearly sufficient to bring about change in how they relate to tourists.

I also hate to put it this way but my perception of caleche drivers is that they're definitely not educated people either. Meaning their daily life revolves around nothing introspective or enlightened. They're the harshest of the harsh because that is how they have lived and one does live what one has learned. Their entire socialization from the time they could drive a caleche has been to work and geared around bilking tourists. I'd hazard the caleche drivers see tourists only as people place on earth to give them money. Tourists are nothing other than marks to be taken advantage of. They have no realization we/tourists ARE real people too nor do they care.

I highly doubt, matter of fact, I know NOTHING will change their behavior short of educational enlightenment, skill enhancement and practice practice practice - And - am not even really sure that would be sufficient.

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Bombay » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:01 am

LLL I understand the a lot of caleches are own by a few people and they let people use them. Not unlike some taxis in other countries i.e. New York.

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:00 am

You're probably right that a few families own the various caleche. My main point (and I'm not trying to disparage the uneducated) but I'm betting most of the caleche drivers are illiterate farm type guys who have no ability to do anything else other than drive a horse and buggy. The tragedy of them in Luxor is that they're so prominent in the city and can easily come face to face with tourists.

I can't say I haven't taken caleche rides back in the day of lots of tourists - my memory of a first ride ever and I didn't know exactly 'where' I was being taken and I guess the driver thought going through the market would be entertaining for me

12075

But after I got used to the place and started to really LOOK at the horses and drivers I wasn't terribly happy at the condition of what I saw way back then - this being a bit of an example - hoofs, harness etc however I saw worse AND this was during the time of Luxor's affluence :( :( :( Don't want to imagine what this same horse might look like now. Have to say too my memory of this horse was the Driver's - ummm - how to put it nicely - He was an ******** big time and the words he used would have made a drunken sailor blush......

12076

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Dusak » Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:32 am

You can always lead the horse to water, but you can never make the driver polite.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:36 am

The latest number I have seen is that the minister of tourism gave out checks worth 3 million LE, this is for Luxor and Aswan together, and is supposed to cover caleche drivers and felucca captains. Let's just assume there are 300 of each, 600, sharing 1.5 million pounds over a year in Luxor. And let's also assume every one of them has a family of 5 to support, so a total of 3000 people, plus 300 horses, who on a starvation diet consume 3650LE of food a year each (this is what the people in Nazlet el Samaan are spending just to keep their horses alive). So the horses alone will consume about 1 million of that money at 10LE a day. In the end, after you feed the horses, there is 135LE per family member per year. In other words about 50 piasters per person per day. Even if you didn't feed the horses at all that would mean about 1.5LE per day per family member, or about 45LE/month, or maybe 225LE/month per family. When you actually look at the real numbers, it is still virtually nothing.

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Mad Dilys » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:23 am

Glyphdoctor wrote:The latest number I have seen is that the minister of tourism gave out checks worth 3 million LE, this is for Luxor and Aswan together, and is supposed to cover caleche drivers and felucca captains. Let's just assume there are 300 of each, 600, sharing 1.5 million pounds over a year in Luxor. And let's also assume every one of them has a family of 5 to support, so a total of 3000 people, plus 300 horses, who on a starvation diet consume 3650LE of food a year each (this is what the people in Nazlet el Samaan are spending just to keep their horses alive). So the horses alone will consume about 1 million of that money at 10LE a day. In the end, after you feed the horses, there is 135LE per family member per year. In other words about 50 piasters per person per day. Even if you didn't feed the horses at all that would mean about 1.5LE per day per family member, or about 45LE/month, or maybe 225LE/month per family. When you actually look at the real numbers, it is still virtually nothing.
Actually I believe that there are a lot more caliches/horses. In addition there are often more two or three horses to each caliche.
Other that that I totally agree with your maths.
In addition to that there are very many caliches which are rented by the day to itinerant people who are already far below the poverty line and in a pretty desperate position already.
I know that they are few, but to be fair I do know several caliche drivers who genuinely love their horses, look after them well and are polite to their passengers.
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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Glyphdoctor » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:29 am

I'm going by the figures for licensed caleches that I have seen. Of course, there are many more that have come from Esna to work in Luxor without licenses.

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by A-Four » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:13 pm

Has the likes of Ace and Brooks, the people who really care about the horses, been offered any cash, to help them keep going, through this dreadful period?

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Re: Caleches get 1.5 Million LE from Tourist Ministry

Post by Dusak » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:04 pm

One thing that the Brooks is not short of is cash. Ace could, and always does, need the support of the community. And this is straight from the horses mouth so to speak.
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