Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old girl

Reporting and discussing local, national and international news items.

Moderators: DJKeefy, 4u Network

User avatar
Horus
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7933
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:59 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 2431 times
Been thanked: 1870 times
Gender:
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Horus »

No doubt the above quote of “let him have it” or more aptly “Let him have it Chris!” is a reference to Derek Bentley who was hanged for murder on the police evidence of him saying those words at the crime scene, prior to his accomplice actually killing a policemen by shooting him. It is one of those highly controversial cases and he was subsequently granted a posthumous pardon, although there are many who disagree with it. I would not want to see anyone convicted and given a death sentence based solely on spoken evidence or very poor DNA evidence and prison terms would be more appropriate as new evidence or appeals can be made. However we know of many instances where the evidence is overwhelming, Fred West, Brady and Hindley, Ian Huntley et al and in those circumstances the death penalty should apply. As Newcastle has already stated a true life sentence is a cruel and long form of punishment and many take their own lives, therefore I would argue it is more humane to execute them and relieve the nation of the burden of keeping them in prison for life.


Image
User avatar
Zooropa
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: Leicester
Has thanked: 775 times
Been thanked: 976 times
Gender:
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Zooropa »

I broadly agree with you Horus but unfortunately it does not and can not, cater for miscarriages of justice.

Most people are convicted in the face of overwhelming evidence.

In British law you cant reach any guilty verdict without it being "beyond a reasonable doubt"

People like Huntley, West, The Guildford Four & The Birmingham Six are all guilty beyond a reasonable doubt right up until the point its proved otherwise and in the case of the last two on my list it was proved otherwise.

I think that had we had the death penalty in the 70's/80's then its a reasonable assumption that convicted terrorists who had committed mass murder via a bomb would have been executed.

Timothy Evans was another who was executed and there is little controversy over his subsequent pardon but as in the case of Bentley it was also too late.

How many people doubted the guilt of Colin Stagg who was suspected of the murder of Rachel Nikell and this was whilst he was still under investigation and before any trial had started.

I agree that "life" in jail can be considered as "cruel" as the death penalty but i would suggest execution of innocents is crueler.
User avatar
Horus
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7933
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:59 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 2431 times
Been thanked: 1870 times
Gender:
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Horus »

I take your point, but as I said before it should not be all based on forensic eveidence. That sort of evidence often points towards finding the perpetrator, but it is the later investigations that usually prove the guilt and in many cases it is beyond dispute, in my book a man arrested as he has just stabbed a policeman to death, or standing next to a headless corpse carrying a bloodied machette is about as certain of guilt as you can get. I might add that I have my own opinions of this that I am not likely to change, so sorry to say that neither of us is likely to concede to the other and as I said before I only put in my two pennorth in to supporth JL's point of view and to refute his clique comment.
Image
User avatar
Dusak
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 6190
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
Location: LUXOR
Has thanked: 3241 times
Been thanked: 3812 times
Gender:
Thailand

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Dusak »

I suppose that if you personally have to live with the aftermath of a family member being murdered, then your attitudes/thoughts on the matter would change. I personally have never had a loss in the family due to murder, but I have had friends in the UK that suffered such a fate. My friend always gets upset, as do the rest of the family, on the birthday of her murdered youngest sister, the anniversary of the deed and at Ramadan. Each year they pray for his hanging, but he just remains in prison without trial which for them is a sentence offering them no closure.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.
User avatar
Zooropa
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: Leicester
Has thanked: 775 times
Been thanked: 976 times
Gender:
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Zooropa »

There is little i would argue with in your last post Horus and i happily concede most of the points made (could be because my holiday is imminent and im in a good mood!?!?!) and i would be open to the idea of capital punishment is such cases where guilt is that certain.

The murder of Lee Rigby is another example.

But unfortunately those cases are rare and i would worry that capital punishment would not be restricted to such inarguable cases of guilt.

And thats where the problems begin because as i said the death penalty would almost certainly include the examples i gave in my previous post.
User avatar
Zooropa
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: Leicester
Has thanked: 775 times
Been thanked: 976 times
Gender:
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Zooropa »

Dusak wrote:I suppose that if you personally have to live with the aftermath of a family member being murdered, then your attitudes/thoughts on the matter would change. I personally have never had a loss in the family due to murder, but I have had friends in the UK that suffered such a fate. My friend always gets upset, as do the rest of the family, on the birthday of her murdered youngest sister, the anniversary of the deed and at Ramadan. Each year they pray for his hanging, but he just remains in prison without trial which for them is a sentence offering them no closure.
I take your point Dusak, i did work with someone for quite a period of time who was murdered by her partner and dumped in the boot of a car, her murder was described as brutal and inhumane.

At the time, had i been in a position to pass sentence i suspect his life imprisonment wouldnt have been a point at which i was likely to have stopped at.

But that is why (and rightly so) we dont have a system of taking the law into ones hands in this country.
newcastle
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 8695
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:49 am
Has thanked: 1548 times
Been thanked: 5127 times
Contact:
Egypt

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by newcastle »

Once you have the death penalty - however deserved you may feel it is in particular cases - you open the possibility of a miscarriage which you can't rectify.

There is also an argument put forward in relation to the Brady/Hindley (?) case that keeping them alive in prison kept open the possibility that they would disclose the whereabouts of their victims' bodies.

If I'm thinking of the right case, and after several years, conversations with the culprits lead detectives to one victim giving some sort of closure to the family of that individual.
newcastle
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 8695
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:49 am
Has thanked: 1548 times
Been thanked: 5127 times
Contact:
Egypt

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by newcastle »

And, if you advocate the return of the death penalty for, say, murder are you going to apply it, mandatorily , to all murders ...from the drug dealer who shoots another dealer in an argument to the paedophile who rapes and tortures a child to death?

If not...how will you distinguish, sentence-wise, between individual cases? And who will make this distinction?

A judge?....based on what? His or her essentially subjective view of the gravity of the crime?

Different judges may come to different conclusions leaving life and death decisions to the arbitrary choice of which court/judge is involved.
User avatar
Horus
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7933
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:59 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 2431 times
Been thanked: 1870 times
Gender:
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Horus »

I cannot believe it is beyond the wit of man or our over rated legal and judiciary to come up with a set of penalties appropriate to the crime committed. Rape/torture and subsequent murder of a child for example gets top penalty, as does the murder of a police offer carrying out his/her duty. It is not implicit that you have to impose a death penalty for lesser degrees of murder such as in a domestic dispute, these can be dealt with by a prison term as can other forms of murder. The problem as I see it is that all cases of murder come under the same heading, ergo murder, but all murder is not the same in its intent or its brutality and if our highly paid legal system cannot come up with an effective answer to this discrepancy then I would say they are actually unfit to be administering the law in the first place.
Anyway folks I must detach myself from this particular debate as I have a busy few days ahead. ;)
Image
newcastle
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 8695
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:49 am
Has thanked: 1548 times
Been thanked: 5127 times
Contact:
Egypt

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by newcastle »

Sorry Horus...that just won't wash!

All crimes...certainly all murders....are different and it is definitely beyond the wit of the legislature to categorise all situations. It was the inconsistency of the sentencing and the inability of the legislature to come up with a comprehensive rational system that led eventually to the abolition of the death penalty.

You could have broad distinctions...say murder of a child or police officer. But then you might want to add other categories of victim. And what about particularly gruesome murders, involving rape and torture?

What about extenuating circumstances?

At the end of the day you either have mandatory death sentence (subject perhaps to the Home Secretary's discretion) or you leave the sentencing down to the discretion of the acting judge. Neither course seems very satisfactory to me.

Prior to 1957, all murders carried a mandatory death sentence.

After 1957, and prior to the abolition of the death penalty, it was only applied to Capital Murder....broadly, murder in the course of theft, murder with a firearm, murder whist evading arrest and murder of a police or prison officer. All other murders...of children.... involving rape...however gruesome.... received a mandatory life sentence.

I can't see us going back to this "liberal" regime. It wouldn't satisfy the hang 'em & flog 'em brigade :lol:

Best leave things as they are and forgo the dubious satisfaction of seeing someone terminated at the state's behest.
User avatar
Zooropa
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: Leicester
Has thanked: 775 times
Been thanked: 976 times
Gender:
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Zooropa »

Horus wrote:I cannot believe it is beyond the wit of man or our over rated legal and judiciary to come up with a set of penalties appropriate to the crime committed. Rape/torture and subsequent murder of a child for example gets top penalty, as does the murder of a police offer carrying out his/her duty. It is not implicit that you have to impose a death penalty for lesser degrees of murder such as in a domestic dispute, these can be dealt with by a prison term as can other forms of murder. The problem as I see it is that all cases of murder come under the same heading, ergo murder, but all murder is not the same in its intent or its brutality and if our highly paid legal system cannot come up with an effective answer to this discrepancy then I would say they are actually unfit to be administering the law in the first place.
Anyway folks I must detach myself from this particular debate as I have a busy few days ahead. ;)



Horus has scored!?!?!?




I have a busy few days as well but sadly it only involves ironing my holiday stuff and packing my case! :td
User avatar
Dusak
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 6190
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
Location: LUXOR
Has thanked: 3241 times
Been thanked: 3812 times
Gender:
Thailand

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Dusak »

:tk and I'd like to bet its a long time since he last scored. :lol:
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.
User avatar
Horus
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7933
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:59 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 2431 times
Been thanked: 1870 times
Gender:
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Horus »

Dusak wrote::tk and I'd like to bet its a long time since he last scored. :lol:
If you are talking football here Dusak, you are dead right :lol:
But if not, all I can say is that when you are suave, debonair, handsome and every ladies dream, then your phone never stops ringing ;) ……….. mine must have a fault on the line.
Image
User avatar
Zooropa
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: Leicester
Has thanked: 775 times
Been thanked: 976 times
Gender:
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Zooropa »

Horus wrote:
Dusak wrote::tk and I'd like to bet its a long time since he last scored. :lol:
If you are talking football here Dusak, you are dead right :lol:
But if not, all I can say is that when you are suave, debonair, handsome and every ladies dream, then your phone never stops ringing ;) ……….. mine must have a fault on the line.

Yeah - ive got a friend like that as well - its hard not to get jealous isnt it Horus? :D
Sleepy Head
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:24 pm
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by Sleepy Head »

How can anyone in their right mind say that the rape of a baby or young child is no different from the rape of an adult or an old person. Duh. Rape of an adult is dreadful but it does not tear the insides apart as it does in a baby. Few adults are raped to death, death occurs by some other means but babies and young children are often raped to death due to the catastrophic injuries that it can incur. A child's body is not adaptable to the intrusion of an erect adult penis and therefore a harsher penalty is in order. Perhaps they had the right idea in Luxor when they castrated and killed a child molester.
newcastle
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 8695
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:49 am
Has thanked: 1548 times
Been thanked: 5127 times
Contact:
Egypt

Re: Authorities execute man convicted of raping 5-year-old g

Post by newcastle »

Sleepy Head wrote:How can anyone in their right mind say that the rape of a baby or young child is no different from the rape of an adult or an old person. Duh. Rape of an adult is dreadful but it does not tear the insides apart as it does in a baby. Few adults are raped to death, death occurs by some other means but babies and young children are often raped to death due to the catastrophic injuries that it can incur. A child's body is not adaptable to the intrusion of an erect adult penis and therefore a harsher penalty is in order. Perhaps they had the right idea in Luxor when they castrated and killed a child molester.
Nobody said that.

I said "rape and murder". The suffering of the victim is over.

The feelings of the husband or son of a raped and murdered adult woman are just as relevant, and in no way less, than those of the family of a raped and murdered child.

The view of the rest of society, depending on the brutality of the situation, will vary....but is not particularly relevant and the penalty for rape, and then murder, should be independent of the victim.

You will be aware that some sections of society might possibly applaud the murder of , say, homosexuals, paedophiles, atheists or blasphemers...even when they are not guilty of a crime, or in any case one as serious as rape & murder.
Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post