If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Glyphdoctor »

You are absolutely correct about reasons for taking up smoking, initially. The point is, once you take it up, it takes on a life of its own and perpetuates the need for itself. One doesn't continue to smoke mainly because one's associates do it, but primarily because of the addiction itself. Ever try to convince a smoker to stop? Peer pressure may start them on smoking, but it sure as hell is almost useless at stopping it. There is not the same element of free will at that point any more like other cultural practices.



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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Zooropa »

newcastle wrote:I perceive the sound of splitting hairs here.

Smoking is, of course, a habit but how often do you hear people speak of the "culture of smoking" in Egypt?

And some people take up smoking because that's what their associates are doing...copying a habit...rather as Egyptians might copy the custom of slaughtering animals to propitiate the jinns or whatever.

Anyway...before I lose the plot...where are we score-wise? 15-40? Mind you, it has turned into a doubles match Dusak so you may need to find a partner.

Hardly cricket...what? :cg
Well who would have thought it?

No cliques here, out of the three of us you wouldn't expect this "split".

Just goes to show, thankfully, that we are all individuals.

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Zooropa »

newcastle wrote:I perceive the sound of splitting hairs here.

Smoking is, of course, a habit but how often do you hear people speak of the "culture of smoking" in Egypt?

And some people take up smoking because that's what their associates are doing...copying a habit...rather as Egyptians might copy the custom of slaughtering animals to propitiate the jinns or whatever.

Anyway...before I lose the plot...where are we score-wise? 15-40? Mind you, it has turned into a doubles match Dusak so you may need to find a partner.

Hardly cricket...what? :cg
Oh no, not another member of the "habit" crew.

I hope you are not a smoker Newcastle, most who use the word habit arnt and so say it out of ignorance.

I hate it when people do what im about to do, its so annoying but im going to do it anyway.

SMOKING IS AN ADDICTION.

Picking your nose and biting your nails is a habit.

Glyph summed it up very well in my view.

Although I would say, no one who took the time and trouble to address my habit of smoking when I did smoke had any problem convincing me to stop, that is very different from helping someone to stop.

I think most smokers know its very bad for you, one of the worst things you can do healthwise.

And I never met a mature smoker either in age or mind who did not regret starting.

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by newcastle »

Zooropa wrote:
newcastle wrote:I perceive the sound of splitting hairs here.

Smoking is, of course, a habit but how often do you hear people speak of the "culture of smoking" in Egypt?

And some people take up smoking because that's what their associates are doing...copying a habit...rather as Egyptians might copy the custom of slaughtering animals to propitiate the jinns or whatever.

Anyway...before I lose the plot...where are we score-wise? 15-40? Mind you, it has turned into a doubles match Dusak so you may need to find a partner.

Hardly cricket...what? :cg
Oh no, not another member of the "habit" crew.

I hope you are not a smoker Newcastle, most who use the word habit arnt and so say it out of ignorance.

I hate it when people do what im about to do, its so annoying but im going to do it anyway.

SMOKING IS AN ADDICTION.

Picking your nose and biting your nails is a habit.

Glyph summed it up very well in my view.

Although I would say, no one who took the time and trouble to address my habit of smoking when I did smoke had any problem convincing me to stop, that is very different from helping someone to stop.

I think most smokers know its very bad for you, one of the worst things you can do healthwise.

And I never met a mature smoker either in age or mind who did not regret starting.
We'll have to disagree on this one . In my opinion...and it's supported by various sources I've checked...it's more accurate to say that smoking is a habit to which you may become addicted.....because smoking involves partaking of nicotine. a known addictive substance.

The line between a habit & an addiction is not always clear.....for example you can find regular users of cocaine or watchers of porn who are not "addicted" in the technically accepted sense.

But enough of pedantry.....and how the hell did we move from Dusak slaughtering on his doorstep to this :ni:

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Zooropa »

newcastle wrote:
Zooropa wrote:
newcastle wrote:I perceive the sound of splitting hairs here.

Smoking is, of course, a habit but how often do you hear people speak of the "culture of smoking" in Egypt?

And some people take up smoking because that's what their associates are doing...copying a habit...rather as Egyptians might copy the custom of slaughtering animals to propitiate the jinns or whatever.

Anyway...before I lose the plot...where are we score-wise? 15-40? Mind you, it has turned into a doubles match Dusak so you may need to find a partner.

Hardly cricket...what? :cg
Oh no, not another member of the "habit" crew.

I hope you are not a smoker Newcastle, most who use the word habit arnt and so say it out of ignorance.

I hate it when people do what im about to do, its so annoying but im going to do it anyway.

SMOKING IS AN ADDICTION.

Picking your nose and biting your nails is a habit.

Glyph summed it up very well in my view.

Although I would say, no one who took the time and trouble to address my habit of smoking when I did smoke had any problem convincing me to stop, that is very different from helping someone to stop.

I think most smokers know its very bad for you, one of the worst things you can do healthwise.

And I never met a mature smoker either in age or mind who did not regret starting.
We'll have to disagree on this one . In my opinion...and it's supported by various sources I've checked...it's more accurate to say that smoking is a habit to which you may become addicted.....because smoking involves partaking of nicotine. a known addictive substance.

The line between a habit & an addiction is not always clear.....for example you can find regular users of cocaine or watchers of porn who are not "addicted" in the technically accepted sense.

But enough of pedantry.....and how the hell did we move from Dusak slaughtering on his doorstep to this :ni:
Yes we will have to disagree, and may I respectfully agree you are being padantic as well as wrong. Almost everyone who smokes for a length of time becomes addicted and to call smoking a habit is somewhat irritating and inaccurate and your sources however "several" they may be are wrong.

Ive been a smoker, a very heavy one and your sources are a complete irrelevance to me because I speak from experience.

Smoking is no different to hard drug addiction and in fact, nicotine is said to be the most addictive substance there is and no one would think to describe the regular hard taking of drugs as a "habit"

And the line between habit and addiction is very clear to those of us who smoke or used to smoke and not clear to those who don't, addiction is best realised by those who are addicted and not those who study it.

Yes, there are a number of people who may not become addicted but the numbers who don't versus the numbers who do are so small that to say you may become addicted is akin to saying if you get shot in the head at point blank range you may not die, the difference between those who will live and die are about the same I would imagine.

We got on to this subject because Dusak attempted to point out an inconsistency of mine rather than explain his own inconsistency - we shall have to let that one go as, to his credit, he usually tackles subjects head on.

In any case, im quite happy to acknowledge my own inconsistancies, as I eluded previously we all have them to one degree or other.

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by newcastle »

Well, Zooropa, there's little doubt that you are completely firm in your opinion on this matter and I have no wish to try and shake this belief.

But as with belief in God.....and I think we might agree on this.... a firmly held conviction doesn't make it true!

And with that I bid you good night ;)

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Zooropa »

newcastle wrote:Well, Zooropa, there's little doubt that you are completely firm in your opinion on this matter and I have no wish to try and shake this belief.

But as with belief in God.....and I think we might agree on this.... a firmly held conviction doesn't make it true!

And with that I bid you good night ;)
And by the same conviction doesn't make it false either!

when the majority of users of a substance become addicted its right and proper to call it an addiction and pedantic and unhelpful to call it a habit.

There are treatment centres and government backed programs to treat the addiction to tobacco.

How many treatment centres and programs are you aware of for "habits"?

Goodnight sir!

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Glyphdoctor »

The word "addiction" has more negative stigma than "habit" or "culture." It's not surprising that some would explain away a chemical effect by twisting words for this reason.

In addition, some people just can't stand to admit they lack self-control, but that is exactly what a substance like nicotine does, it controls your will power.

But if someone would rather pin the reason for their smoking on habit or culture, then you have to take responsibility for doing something self-destructive from your own free will, and frankly, I think that reflects more poorly on someone than being an addict.

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by newcastle »

Zooropa wrote:
newcastle wrote:Well, Zooropa, there's little doubt that you are completely firm in your opinion on this matter and I have no wish to try and shake this belief.

But as with belief in God.....and I think we might agree on this.... a firmly held conviction doesn't make it true!

And with that I bid you good night ;)
And by the same conviction doesn't make it false either!

when the majority of users of a substance become addicted its right and proper to call it an addiction.... No it isn't! I'm sorry, but this simply perverts the English language. A habit can become an addiction...they are not the same. And I would dispute the statement that the majority of smokers become addicted.

and pedantic and unhelpful to call it a habitIf you find being corrected on the meaning of words pedantic...so be it. I'm not sure in what way it's being "unhelpful" to use words correctly....except perhaps in the sense it might lull some people into a false sense of security with regard to something they are doing repetitively (a habit)...and a potentially dangerous one at that... which could turn into an addiction

There are treatment centres and government backed programs to treat the addiction to tobacco.True....but you will find they are usually (certainly as regards smoking) much more sparing of the use of the words " addict/addiction" because it may create an unhelpful feeling of failure on the part of the individual.This is not my own view but the opinion of an eminent addiction counselor, Dr Robert Lefever, who happens to be an acquaintance of mine and with whom I've discussed addiction, its causes & treatment, at length.

Robert also treats people addicted to exercise, shopping, drugs and sex. I assume you don't call "sex" an addiction simply because it's a habit which can, for some, turn into an addiction?


How many treatment centres and programs are you aware of for "habits"?Why would you want them...unless the habit turns into an addiction


Sticking to the subject - the habit - of smoking....many people may smoke for periods of their life, perhaps when young, and then give up, for various reasons. Health concerns of course...but others too. The ease with which they abandon the habit will determine whether "their smoking" had become an addiction. This is one of the main indicators of whether a habit has turned into an addiction....and it's where you are, with respect, quite wrong in calling "smoking" an addiction PER SE. I don't have the figures to hand but I would imagine a large proportion of ,say, the UK's population have tried smoking at one time or another, for varying periods, but the number who could correctly be termed as addicted is quite small.

I repeat....smoking is a habit, a dangerous one, which involves a chemically addictive substance and which sometimes (but by no means always) leads to the habit turning into an addiction


Goodnight sir!

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by newcastle »

Glyphdoctor wrote:The word "addiction" has more negative stigma than "habit" or "culture." It's not surprising that some would explain away a chemical effect by twisting words for this reason.

You are quite right....and one of the important obstacles an addiction counselor has to overcome when treating someone whose habit has turned into an addiction

In addition, some people just can't stand to admit they lack self-control, but that is exactly what a substance like nicotine does, it controls your will power.

That is also true...but not entirely relevant. A lack of self-control and becoming chemically addicted to a substance, or a habit, are not quite the same thing. Addiction involves subtle changes to the brain processes. People can be totally self-controlled in every other aspect of their lives...but then lack control over a habit when it involves a chemically addictive substance

But if someone would rather pin the reason for their smoking on habit or culture, then you have to take responsibility for doing something self-destructive from your own free will, and frankly, I think that reflects more poorly on someone than being an addict.
Again, I would agree! And I hope I haven't created the impression that I think smoking is other than a very dangerous habit. No-one of any intelligence nowadays would continue smoking because they believe it's a harmless occupation and part of their culture...a mere habit. In the light of what we know about smoking, it's reasonable to assume that those who continue to smoke are either "addicted"....or seriously deranged.

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by carrie »

Have to agree with Glyph here, I smoke, I am addicted. I did stop for 5 years once, much easier in the UK to do so I think, not so many places to have a ciggy. Came to Egypt and just had one and was back on the weed. Very much the same as an alcoholic having just one drink I suppose. I am an addict not proud of the fact but honest enough to hold up my hands and admit the fact. My fault, not societies, not a cultural thing, lack of will power on my part and the effect of addictive nicotine.

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Mad Dilys »

Many years ago when I was a child and before all the negative aspects of smoking became common knowledge, my Grandfather made this suggestion.

I smoke a pipe,he said, because the paper round cigarettes is very bad for you. The paper contains many chemicals - among them saltpetre to keep the cigarette alight. Pipe and rolling tobacco tissues don't. That's why both cigars and "rollies" go out easily and the smoker pauses frequently during his smoke.

I didn't take much notice of this at the time, but shortly after there was a public fuss about the use of saltpetre in pickling
especially meat as it was carcinogenic, so it rang a bell about smoking.

Over the many years since, I have heard "experts" say that cigars and rollups are less bad for your health, but no one seems to see the elephant in the room...........

I was a habitual smoker off and on for about 20 years before I became addicted. My first husband died of emphysema but it didn't stop me smoking.

I have currently stopped smoking for about 5 years - the previous longest period was 7 years, immediately prior to coming to Egypt where I became addicted.
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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Dusak »

Of all the examples of an off the cuff cultures I could of used, I had to go and choose smoking. :cry: I worked it out a long time ago that you zooropa was the king of the proverbial 'dog with the bone.' :lol: You have the knack of driving people crazy with your continual point prodding on posts. I will admit defeat on this one because my forehead is now sore with the continued smacking against the brick wall. Nit picking :ni: You can always find a nit to pick at. :up You and I are still buddies, but you are giving the unnamed one to much comeback ammunition. I feel as though I'm at Custer's last stand, or in this case, Dusaks. Don't forget it nears Xmas so a bit of heartfelt charity is in order me thinks. :ks
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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by newcastle »

Dusak wrote:Of all the examples of an off the cuff cultures I could of used, I had to go and choose smoking. :cry: I worked it out a long time ago that you zooropa was the king of the proverbial 'dog with the bone.' :lol: You have the knack of driving people crazy with your continual point prodding on posts. I will admit defeat on this one because my forehead is now sore with the continued smacking against the brick wall. Nit picking :ni: You can always find a nit to pick at. :up You and I are still buddies, but you are giving the unnamed one to much comeback ammunition. I feel as though I'm at Custer's last stand, or in this case, Dusaks. Don't forget it nears Xmas so a bit of heartfelt charity is in order me thinks. :ks
You could start a treatment centre for those addicted to nit-picking :lol:

Plenty of potential clients here :worry:

My name is Newcastle...and I'm addicted to Internet Forums.... :xx2 :sp: :xx2

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Zooropa »

newcastle wrote:
Zooropa wrote:
newcastle wrote:Well, Zooropa, there's little doubt that you are completely firm in your opinion on this matter and I have no wish to try and shake this belief.

But as with belief in God.....and I think we might agree on this.... a firmly held conviction doesn't make it true!

And with that I bid you good night ;)
And by the same conviction doesn't make it false either!

when the majority of users of a substance become addicted its right and proper to call it an addiction.... No it isn't! I'm sorry, but this simply perverts the English language. A habit can become an addiction...they are not the same. And I would dispute the statement that the majority of smokers become addicted.

and pedantic and unhelpful to call it a habitIf you find being corrected on the meaning of words pedantic...so be it. I'm not sure in what way it's being "unhelpful" to use words correctly....except perhaps in the sense it might lull some people into a false sense of security with regard to something they are doing repetitively (a habit)...and a potentially dangerous one at that... which could turn into an addiction

There are treatment centres and government backed programs to treat the addiction to tobacco.True....but you will find they are usually (certainly as regards smoking) much more sparing of the use of the words " addict/addiction" because it may create an unhelpful feeling of failure on the part of the individual.This is not my own view but the opinion of an eminent addiction counselor, Dr Robert Lefever, who happens to be an acquaintance of mine and with whom I've discussed addiction, its causes & treatment, at length.

Robert also treats people addicted to exercise, shopping, drugs and sex. I assume you don't call "sex" an addiction simply because it's a habit which can, for some, turn into an addiction?


How many treatment centres and programs are you aware of for "habits"?Why would you want them...unless the habit turns into an addiction


Sticking to the subject - the habit - of smoking....many people may smoke for periods of their life, perhaps when young, and then give up, for various reasons. Health concerns of course...but others too. The ease with which they abandon the habit will determine whether "their smoking" had become an addiction. This is one of the main indicators of whether a habit has turned into an addiction....and it's where you are, with respect, quite wrong in calling "smoking" an addiction PER SE. I don't have the figures to hand but I would imagine a large proportion of ,say, the UK's population have tried smoking at one time or another, for varying periods, but the number who could correctly be termed as addicted is quite small.

I repeat....smoking is a habit, a dangerous one, which involves a chemically addictive substance and which sometimes (but by no means always) leads to the habit turning into an addiction


Goodnight sir!
Again, nonsense and unhelpful, apples and pears.

All of us at some point shop and hopefully have sex, the numbers that become addicted are miniscule versus those who dont, so your comparison is unfair and again - unhelpful.

So yes you are right, I don't call sex an addiction because the overwhelming majority do it and don't become addicted.

Sex and shopping are not endemic problems that the majority of people cant avoid if they don't want to.

To suggest that the numbers that smoke on a regular bases over more than a short space of time and become addicted is quite small is, at least not unhelpful, its just laughable.

You are suggesting that tens of thousands of people in Great Britain alone are not addicted but die of a "habit" every year.

Don't be ridiculous.

You could of course start smoking, im sure you are non smoker along with Robert, as you have avoided confirming or denying that and it would explain, with the greatest of respect to someone I do respect and whos opinions I rate highly (normally) is speaking complete nonsense as far as this is concerned - but I wouldn't recommend it, you would probably become addicted.

Smoking is addictive to the majority of people who have a prolonged use of it.

End of.
Last edited by Zooropa on Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Zooropa »

Dusak wrote:Of all the examples of an off the cuff cultures I could of used, I had to go and choose smoking. :cry: I worked it out a long time ago that you zooropa was the king of the proverbial 'dog with the bone.' :lol: You have the knack of driving people crazy with your continual point prodding on posts. I will admit defeat on this one because my forehead is now sore with the continued smacking against the brick wall. Nit picking :ni: You can always find a nit to pick at. :up You and I are still buddies, but you are giving the unnamed one to much comeback ammunition. I feel as though I'm at Custer's last stand, or in this case, Dusaks. Don't forget it nears Xmas so a bit of heartfelt charity is in order me thinks. :ks

You are correct my good sir and I can tell you that the reason why is I was a very timid child who used to let people walk all over me, it is a backlash against that and the people who did.

Sorry!

Although to be fair, it takes two to tango!

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by newcastle »

My dear Zooropa

I'll excuse the numerous misquotes & misunderstandings....yes....End Of :lol:

Do I smoke? Isn't the answer to that obvious?

And if you become addicted to e-cigs...at least it's an addiction that won't kill you...or so one hopes. :) As a matter of genuine interest, how much do you spend a week on this habit?

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Glyphdoctor »

If Newcastle's position is a reflection of him being a non-smoker, exactly what does my position make me?

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by newcastle »

Glyphdoctor wrote:If Newcastle's position is a reflection of him being a non-smoker, exactly what does my position make me?
Zooropa may think my comments reflect my status as a smoker/non-smoker.

They don't. They reflect my care in the use of the English language and my appreciation of the distinction between the verbs is and might become :wi

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Re: If the pharaohs still ruled Egypt today...

Post by Zooropa »

newcastle wrote:
Glyphdoctor wrote:If Newcastle's position is a reflection of him being a non-smoker, exactly what does my position make me?
Zooropa may think my comments reflect my status as a smoker/non-smoker.

They don't. They reflect my care in the use of the English language and my appreciation of the distinction between the verbs is and might become :wi
I do think your comments reflect your status as a non smoker - ignorance and misunderstanding, in my opinion, and yes as you say your status is very obvious because of that.

I freely admit my use of the English language is poor and yours is excellent, that much is clear.

I would respectfully say that it would have been more encouraging if your comments had more reflected concern for people addicted to a very deadly substance rather than care for the use of the English language, which, for the most part, the standard of which, poor like mine or excellent like yours, wont endanger peoples lives, even if its proficient use does make you feel superior to me, and in this regard it most definitely does because I concede you are.

However, excellent use of the mother tongue is only of extra benefit if the people you are communicating with can appreciate it through understanding and on reflection, perhaps use of the English language can be dangerous.

You are correct in saying that if you smoke you "may" become addicted but I suggest the use of the word "may" is misleading and I would challenge your smugness that you are correct to choose this word.

It clearly implies a risk level significantly lower than reality, as my shot to the head analogy illustrated.

If I was attacked by 10 huge, very hungry Great White Sharks I "may" die, this of course is a correct statement but does not really convey adequately or accurately or even responsibly in my opinion the level of risk attached in such a circumstance.

And your clear high knowledge of the English language should tell you that, pedantic? - yes and you said it!

So you can go on "caring" about the use of the English language if you like, that's your right, on this topic im more concerned with telling it like it is because its a life threatening issue and like Mad Dilys - (sorry if ive miss spelt it it) I too, have lost a close family member to smoking.

You know im in the scientist's camp when it comes to reason, but as I said previously, some things are better understood through experience than study.

As for Glyph, I assume shes a non smoker by her comments but they do reflect, with respect and in my opinion, a greater grasp on the issue and a more ready attitude to telling it like it is.

As I said before, if you and Robert want to be certain in your claims then you can take up smoking, I suggest 20 to 30 a day with moderate to high nicotine content for at least three months, I think if you did you "may" consider changing the your choice of verb, but, I wouldn't recommend it, I like you and smoking "may" kill you.

Im not sure why you want to know how much I spent/spend?

I do hope its not a prelude to a "just think what you could spend the money on!" lecture :roll:

However, if you really want to know I have no problem telling you.

Now, i think there is a very high probability that i have provoked a response to this post from you, would it be accurately conveying the likelihood of you responding by deciding to say -

you "may" respond?

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