Round Up.

[Hafiz]

They have arrested Abul Fotouh. In my view he is the voice of reason. http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent ... pendi.aspx

He was previously, 6 years ago, a member of the Brotherhood and left because he wanted a more liberal approach. He was a former Presidential candidate and has not been a screeming critic of the past 4 years.

Everything he has said and done was moderate.

He is a trained doctor of medicine.

If you round up such people you must be Stalinists that can’t tolerate sensible liberal people.Its not rational as well as unjust

What a mess.

Lets hope he doesn’t die in prison - he is not young.

I feel sick. In particular I think the western governments are silent on what is going on. This arrest is of one of Egypt's best people. The worst who run the place must be happy.

The horrible Mubarak did many things but he would never have done this which shows you that things are worse now.

[newcastle]

Hafiz - I'm not sure Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh is as blemish free as you make out.

Apart from being a founder of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya ( behind the Hatshepsut massacre and many other assassinations) he was a long standing member of the Muslim brotherhood and a member of its Guidance Bureau.

Yes, he's consistently abjured violence. Haven't they all.

He didn't so much as fall out with the Brotherhood as resign in order to stand as an independent in the 2013 election...the Brotherhood having said, initially, that they wouldn't field a candidate.

It's only his non-membership that's prevented his incarceration since Sisi came to power and, I guess, his recent vehement criticisms of Sisi and the path Egypt is taking were a provocation too far.

To my thinking, his islamic tendencies conflict hopelessly with the idea of a secular Egyptian democracy so he and his followers would never represent a viable alternative even if his motives are liberal, decent and peaceful.

[Hafiz]

Ok thank you for that.

I thought I knew a deal about him from 4-5 years ago but I was not aware of what you say.

I will check it out.

Nevertheless all that he has said and done in the past 4 years appears to be liberal, Western and democratic but Islamic. This should not be a basis for arresting him and is generally not something I worry about.

You make a good point about the difficulties of how Islamic views can be reconciled with liberal democratic values. I had thought he had worked that out - but we will see.

He does not appear to be corrupt but maybe non-corruption is a basis for arrest in the New Egypt.

[newcastle]

Criticising Sisi is all it takes....particularly if, apart from that, you look like plausible intelligent opposition..

It'll be interesting to see what charges they indict him with.

Failing to submit his 2017 Propertv Tax return on time?

[carrie]

Isn't he the one that Morsi tried to make Governor of Luxor and there was such an outcry that he wasn't able to take up his post? If so I doubt if many in Luxor will regret his arrest but welcome it and think it long overdue.

[newcastle]

Isn't he the one that Morsi tried to make Governor of Luxor and there was such an outcry that he wasn't able to take up his post? If so I doubt if many in Luxor will regret his arrest but welcome it and think it long overdue.

You're thinking of Adel Asaad El-Khayat.

Like Foutouh, he was a founder member of Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya which left a nasty taste in the mouth of Luxorians (re Hatshepsut)

[Major Thom]

Well it is election year coming up so the aim is to get any opponent out of the way so it goes smoothly and as intended. Bit like an Oil Rig.... Most of the people I think are stupid enough to take in all this C--p and keep on voting for oppression and poverty, while the MP's are lining their pockets.

[Hafiz]

Newcastle – I’m still checking the facts on F – bit difficult in fact free Egypt.

Jamaa was a nasty organization that allegedly killed 1200 (a very high number based mainly on State sources). I know what the Egyptian State media say about F. but find it hard to get original contemporary hard evidence on F.’s role

At this stage I’ve got this:

A major book on this period in Egypt is Answering the Call (Oxford University Press 2014). The author, Al Arian, is an Assistant Professor at Georgetown University

In 2012 Arian who had studied the violence of the 70’s and 80’s wrote this for al Jazeera: “Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh: Former Muslim Brotherhood, but with a more moderate vision of Islamist politics. Connects with a wide swath of Egyptions from liberal Islamists to Salafis. Because of nationalistic tendencies, he also connects with liberals, leftists and Coptic Christians. Was one of only two candidates to have been in Tahrir Square on the first day of protests and has respect of revolutionary youth. As Head of Arab Medical Union and with his history of political activism since the 1970's (complete with imprisonments) he has grassroots support among the youth.”
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 38478.html Whether this document is available in freedom-loving and democratic Egypt I doubt.

The distinguished Egyptian International Civil Rights Lawyer, and enemy of Mubarak and others, Bassouini thinks Fatouth was a liberal force in the Brotherhood prior to 2011 and that as a result he was excluded from its Supreme Leadership and left them to form his own political organization. Chronicles of the Egyptian Revolution (Cambridge University Press) p 211. Bassiouni has little information on how F migrated from his earlier role to 2011 but I can find nothing negative he has to say about him. Given the deplorable state of Egyptian Universities Bassiouni is one of the very few sources. That there are few sources of truth must be very reassuring to some. Just imagine what would happen if the truth got out. (The book is not available for sale in Egypt and the AUC stays well away from it in its eternal support for free speech).

The other thing I find interesting is his headship of a major doctors organization. Assuming its not just a Brotherhood front (no one has ever said it was) and assuming he was elected I find that a profession never noted for lots of Brothers would have elected him to this if they thought him with a past as a violent killer/terrorist/Islamist/organizer of such.

A similar argument could also be made about the Brotherhood – which rejected violence in the several decades prior to 2013 (the more recent violence/terrorism in Egypt is generally assumed to be partly attributable a youth breakaway group and it is not impossible that F has allied with them but as the State allegations do not include violence an alliance with terrorists seems unlikely). Appointing him to very senior positions ran the risk, if the terrorist stuff was believed, of their being smeared with his prior crimes. They either took the risk or didn’t much believe what was said by the State about him.

Neither author makes much of the Jamaa issue which I find odd. Are they bad academics or do they have bad judgement? Are they doubting government sources? They show little curiosity on how his seeming migration from killer to liberal democrat happened and show little caution in giving a fixed positive view of the current Fatouh.

Its very hard to know what has happened in the last 70 years in Egypt because objective, balanced research with access to the official documents is non-existent - as are IQ's of 100 plus or reading and writing skills. On the other hand propaganda dominates the local scene – particularly if you are an enemy.

At this stage I'm inclined to think that the State Propaganda machine has gone overboard/done its usual stuff. I'm also inclined to think that locals who are not uncynical have made positive views about him, when they were not under pressure to do so, and that his bad period was short and unbloody. This is all a guess. One certainty is that the media is full of lies.

I understand your (Newcastle's) caution/skepticism, your need for written obscurities from your local location but if you have other negative evidence I’m interested. I’ve always kept an eye on him but it wouldn’t be the first time a politician was unclothed as a wolf. At least with the current Egyptian crop everyone knows what species they already are and have been for 70 years. Their reality is not positive.

[newcastle]

I have no reason to doubt that F is far removed from any sensible definition of terrorist....the charge he's now facing apparently.

He appears to be a moderate islamic thinker. I have to call him an islamist as he did seek political office but I've no reason to think he's other than a decent chap, absolutely against violence. I don't think the people want an islamist government, after Morsi's tenure, so I'm not sure why the regime are worried about him.

Outright criticism of Sisi and the policies of the regime has sealed his fate.....that's all it takes nowadays.

[newcastle]

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI)

Prior to His Arrest, Egyptian Politician Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh Slams Al-Sisi for Non-Democratic, Strong-Arm Tactics

Former Egyptian presidential candidate Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh, founder of the Strong Egypt Party, called to cancel his country's upcoming presidential elections, charging that anybody who donates money to opposition parties is detained on charges of terrorism or money laundering. In a prerecorded BBC Arabic interview, which was broadcast on February 15, Fotouh leveled harsh criticism against President Al-Sisi, saying that "when elections are held in keeping with [democratic] standards, they will give rise to a strong president, who is not susceptible to extortion, and who will not succumb to pressure" and that they would not be a "cooked up, fabricated, pathetic process to produce a president." On February 14, after giving several interviews to foreign media outlets, Aboul Fotouh was arrested on charges of terrorism

phpBB [video]

[Hafiz]

Thanks.

I treat MEMRI very cautiously - unfortunately its often the only one to translate a deal in the region.

It is extreme pro-Israeli - and I mean extreme.

It is generally anti-Muslim - even moderates.

It was established by an Israeli spook.

It has ties to the Israeli Secret Service. (although, and as I'm sure you know, Israel supports Sisi - over the alternatives because all they wont is stability and they think thats him and not the alternatives - if there are any alternatives)

It delights in giving world prominence to some mad statement from some illiterate Imam in the sticks.

That isn't to say that it isn't useful.

[newcastle]

It is generally anti-Muslim - even moderates.

I've seen a lot of "rational" muslims being showcased by MEMRI recently too....so it can be, as you say, useful.

They take delight in mocking anything emanating from Al Azhar....which is probably why they haven't been blocked. The Egyptians themselves seem diffident about confronting the bastion of backwardness.

[newcastle]

Looks like Foutouh is for the high jump....

On Sunday Prosecutor-General Nabil Sadek ordered that the assets of Abdel-Moneim Abul-Fotouh and 15 others be frozen for alleged ties with the banned Muslim Brotherhood.

In a statement the prosecutor’s office said, “the freeze order was issued in line with lawsuit 440/2018 filed by the High State Security Prosecution against Abul-Fotouh, and with the 2015 law regulating terrorist entities and activities [Law 8/2015].”

The moves against Abul-Fotouh began two weeks ago, following his return from London on 14 February. The High State Security Prosecution ordered Abul-Fotouh’s detention for 15 days pending investigations into charges which include holding secret contacts in London with officials of the banned Muslim Brotherhood with the aim of destabilising the country in the run-up to this month’s presidential election. On 26 February Abul-Fotouh’s detention was renewed for an additional 15 days.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/News/23938.aspx

[Hafiz]

In Egypt assets can be seized/frozen even without a charge or the appearance of the prosecution before a court to outline its case and justify a freeze or arrest. There is a lot deeply wrong with the Egyptian 'justice' system (almost all of it which implies that incremental reform will always fail) which gives the Police/Security Service/military uncontrolled power. How the Egyptian judiciary and lawyers stay members of international organizations is a miracle. They should be expelled.

Whether F. is still locked up I'm unclear - but probably. He should make a run to the UK Embassy - but their spook diplomat/Ambassador/Child/Incompetent and Inexperienced Manager would probably drive him back. The Australians would be drunk and asleep but the US might do it.

Would they dare to torture him? Is he subject to a military court under the State of Emergence where he has no right to a lawyer, (possibly) no right to see the evidence against him, the court is secret and no one can mention it and there is no right to appeal.

These superb military rules apply not only to enemies of the state (tens of millions of these) but to all 'offences' committed on military 'premises' - including their supermarkets and their hotel on the Nile at Luxor and 2/3 k's either side of any road. So if you are raped by a soldier on a road forget it. Therefore an unmarried couple sleeping in a bed in a military hotel are subject to the Kafka military procedures. All Western homosexuals and lesbians staying at these hotels, going to their supermarkets need to be on guard.

All desert land is owned by the army, not the citizens of Egypt, )the immortal army control all Egypt's assets) everyone needs to look out. For example some army desert land on the coast was sold by the army (the army took the money god knows where it ended up) but only for a lease. Given the Egyptian laws are drafted by a mentally deficient five year old its not clear whether this leased land which is now a resort, is covered by military law. The only safe place for a tourist is the waiting hall in the UK embassy - and don't bet that is perfectly safe.

On one view the entire West Bank is part of military control and the army officers could do daily inspections of all sheet stains to check on what happened the night before.