Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Get the best advice about your holiday in Luxor.

Moderators: DJKeefy, 4u Network

User avatar
Yildez
Top Member
Top Member
Posts: 753
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:59 am
Location: Datca, Turkey
Has thanked: 5293 times
Been thanked: 863 times
Gender:
Turkey

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by Yildez » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:42 pm

You're right Doctor, but there have been serious attacks on Christians in Turkey that haven't really made international news. Christians are a tiny minority here, in fact in 25 years I've never met a Christian Turk.



User avatar
Chocolate Eclair
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 1621
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:56 pm
Location: Luxor Egypt
Has thanked: 124 times
Been thanked: 752 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by Chocolate Eclair » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:59 pm

There is a lot of difference between Muslims and Fanatical Muslim Terrorists....

LovelyLadyLux
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3252
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:27 am
Has thanked: 985 times
Been thanked: 2256 times
Canada

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:36 pm

There is a lot of difference between Muslims and Fanatical Muslim Terrorists....
Of course there is but which ones are making the headlines with neon flashing lights complete with blood and gore and verbage full of death threats and death to Christians that attracts the attention of the public?

User avatar
Dusak
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 5874
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
Location: LUXOR
Has thanked: 5895 times
Been thanked: 7328 times
Gender:
Thailand

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by Dusak » Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:29 am

Last year Mexico had over 15,000 murders all across the country, nearly 70,000 over the last seven years and rising each year due to the drug wars. So why does the British holiday maker find Mexico much safer to visit than Luxor? Perhaps they prefer to chance becoming dead, than to visit a dead country.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

LovelyLadyLux
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3252
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:27 am
Has thanked: 985 times
Been thanked: 2256 times
Canada

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:06 am

Last year Mexico had over 15,000 murders all across the country, nearly 70,000 over the last seven years and rising each year due to the drug wars. So why does the British holiday maker find Mexico much safer to visit than Luxor? Perhaps they prefer to chance becoming dead, than to visit a dead country.
Mexicans aren't out there screaming "Allahu Akbar" declaring jihad against all Christians whilst hacking people to death on the streets and in malls and churches.

I do holiday in Mexico often and there are lots of people from the UK there. Lots from the UE and USA too.

Not saying there aren't safety concerns in Mexico coz there are but most of the drug wars which bring about the murders are not in the resort areas. Am talking generally, broad picture but most of the killing/fighting is in the border regions and many of the gangs and criminal element aren't Mexican.

When one travels about Mexico armed police are everywhere (Kinda like the Mubarak days in Egypt). Regular check points all over, one has to check in via security to their resort and overall there is a strong appearance of law and order and security which also brings about a feeling of safety. I say strong appearance cause I'm not behind the scenes to know what is really going on but can say that on the surface all seems calm with law and order prevailing.

The hassle is there but does not come even close to the level of harassment one encounters in Luxor, all items for sale are priced (usually high but haggling is ok), I've never been cursed at in Mexico but can't say the same for Egypt.

User avatar
pdmlynek
Member
Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:46 am
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 68 times
Gender:
United States of America

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by pdmlynek » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:53 pm

LovelyLadyLux wrote:
Last year Mexico had over 15,000 murders all across the country, nearly 70,000 over the last seven years and rising each year due to the drug wars. So why does the British holiday maker find Mexico much safer to visit than Luxor? Perhaps they prefer to chance becoming dead, than to visit a dead country.
Mexicans aren't out there screaming "Allahu Akbar" declaring jihad against all Christians whilst hacking people to death on the streets and in malls and churches.

I do holiday in Mexico often and there are lots of people from the UK there. Lots from the UE and USA too.
...
The bloody drug war in Mexico has also made headlines in the US, and many tourists were staying away.

But many people also realized that Mexico is big, and problems along the borders with the US have little to do with the safety in the touristy areas. Perhaps, in order to attract tourists, it might be worthwhile for those in the tourist industry to separate in their speech the touristy areas from "Egypt". For example, refer to Sharm and Hurghada as being "on the Red Sea" and Luxor as being on the "Nile", instead of being in Egypt.
I am an experienced traveler, but a newbie to the Middle East.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by Glyphdoctor » Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:42 pm

Some tour brochures are already doing that Red Sea trick.

Bombay
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 1990
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:57 pm
Location: Luxor
Has thanked: 1794 times
Been thanked: 1696 times
Egypt

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by Bombay » Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:18 am

Glyphdoctor wrote:Some tour brochures are already doing that Red Sea trick.
Where's that I have not seen any travel brochures for years living here, all the websites you have to select Egypt to get to any resort.

User avatar
Hafiz
V.I.P
V.I.P
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:23 pm
Has thanked: 805 times
Been thanked: 731 times
Gender:
Australia

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by Hafiz » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:46 am

Like others I find the ignorance of tourist warnings very odd. Maybe Sunshine is a package company where customers leave it to the agent to tell them what to do and to fill out all the forms and visas for them. What I can't understand is that a package operator would not advise a customer, for example, that insurance might be void because of warnings.

Dangerous Muslim countries? Tunisia. Most recent stats put tourism at 10% lower than 2010. Looks like a miracle. Egypt should hire Tunisia's entire Ministry of Tourism.

The daily spend (only for 2002) was much higher than for Egypt in the past few years.

http://www.aawsat.net/2013/04/article55299934

The issue of tourism gets tossed around at least once a week on this forum with little more than anecdote and few ideas on the way forward. There seems to be a lot of the cart before the horse as well as wishful thinking.

The most important issue is what tourists want and sun and sand seem to be an easy sell confirmed by the better performance of the coast (allegedly 80% of the total) in the past few years. Tastes change and some destinations fall into a backwater where threat of bankruptcy tends to focus the mind of new ways of doing business, but maybe not in Egypt where, if the ideas on this forum are taken as representative (which they are probably not), most 'new' ideas seem to be about recovering the past or 'getting' the tourists to come again.

Another point which gets lost is that the coast offers shiny new facilities with all the western trimmings including major army deployments to protect as well as new government infrastructure (water, sewerage, power). They are also clean.

Have there been major private or public investment in Luxor in the past decade? Think not. The major investment has been on the coast by the big money interests and army. These investors rarely have problems in getting high class government infrastructure.

The growth market at the moment is Russia shown with their numbers on the coast - twice the size of the next largest national group. How many Russian's on the ground in Luxor in the past few years. Tunisia is targeting the Russians.

The Ministry of Tourism is hopeless. Its proposal to spend one quarter of its marketing budget on Egyptians shows their muddled thinking. Its extensive overseas offices are not in emerging markets. It would be interesting to know how much they spend overseas on the coast. My bet would be that the big money interests make sure that the coast gets more than it deserves or needs given the size of the tourist developments, their capacity to self fund marketing and the obvious fact that the coast seems to sell itself.

Waiting for government support might be a very long suicide note given the capacity of the army (widely considered to be a major investor in tourism) and the large money interests to influence government decision making. Relying on government help also seems to show that local operators are not real capitalists but hang to the government tit like most other businesses in Egypt. Does anyone remember what the government did to rebuild tourism following the west bank killings in the 90's. Did anyone in the industry think that this was a job well done.

The MA referred to by Glyphdoctor is good: as far as it goes,. However it contains few statistics, or statistics of doubtful value, and reads like a very long job application. It also suffers, as all bad marketing does, focusing on what the seller has to offer rather than beginning with what the buyer wants and competitors for that experience. Her central argument about country branding runs the risk of being all things to all people and places like Luxor aren't that.

My guess is that local organization, the involvement of local and provincial government, talking with tour operators about what is selling and feedback etc. is a low cost strategy that might start tomorrow. It would also turn victims into authors of their own future. Clawing money away from the Ministry to be used for local marketing might also be the way to go.

Proof of the incompetence of the Ministry is a recent (news report of a) meeting where the Minister offered East African countries Egyptian expertise (and probably money) to help their Tourism marketing. Sheer madness and grandstanding, but that is nothing new. Can find link if anyone wants to have a (sad) laugh.

The very least the government could do would be to hire a specialist issues management firm to place positive stories and to produce statistics which show that Egypt remains one of the safest destinations in the third world. Leaving it to the hundreds of muddlers in the overseas tourist offices has obviously not worked. No marketing will last long which paints a false picture.

There has been talk on the forum about widening the experiences offered by Luxor. Does anyone know the status of the Luxor International Painting Symposium/Luxor International Studio sponsored by a luminous board and associated with the Faculty of Arts, South Valley University? Does this still operate or has it fallen off the rails as with other widely trumpeted initiatives. I have seen a photo of a Cairo exhibition of the paintings from the symposium but nothing about Luxor getting the benefit of this program.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by Glyphdoctor » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:13 am

Hafiz wrote:
The most important issue is what tourists want and sun and sand seem to be an easy sell confirmed by the better performance of the coast (allegedly 80% of the total) in the past few years. Tastes change and some destinations fall into a backwater and threat of bankruptcy tends to focus the mind of new ways of doing business, but maybe not in Egypt where, if the ideas on this forum are taken as representative (which they are probably not), most 'new' ideas seem to be about recovering the past or 'getting' the tourists to come again.
At a worldwide level, no that is not true that sun and sea is what all tourists want. That may be what Egypt is getting now, but that is more likely due to poor development or marketing of other forms of tourism.

The forum's participants who have a stake in the tourist business are mostly mono-lingual British citizens. Their idea of tourist is someone who flies in direct from Heathrow to Manchester, or maybe other western English speaking countries and perhaps a few Scandinavian countries because they tend to speak English well.

Understanding of what a tourist from China, or Iran (if they were coming), India, an African country, a Latin American country, or a Gulf state would want and how to communicate with them to get them here and work with them as customers once they are here is nil. "To come again" is not the future of tourism. To get new markets is. Luxor is deficient in a number of ways in being particularly attractive to nationals of some of those countries, but that's where the money and the travelers of the future and even now are coming from.

If you want to work in the tourism business and you only speak one language (not to mention you don't even know the language of the country you are in) or don't hire staff who do speak other languages, then you are the reason your business opportunities are limited. Even the caleche drivers, however uneducated they are, likely can deal with customers in five languages.

User avatar
Glyphdoctor
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7525
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 919 times
Been thanked: 2820 times
Gender:
Egypt

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by Glyphdoctor » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:23 am

And you ask about broadening the experiences for tourists. Honestly, I have several ideas for such businesses that would be aimed at high end tourists looking for unique experiences that I have thought to implement. But there are several reasons I hold back: 1-the unpredictability and instability of the tourism business, 2-the lack of other high end facilities and activities that are needed to achieve critical mass needed to sustain such a market. The average tourist spending in Egypt now is $61 a day. There's nothing high end that such miserly tourists would want. Compare that to San Francisco where the average tourist spends 4 times that amount. That would be the bare minimum expenditure level I would want to target, if you can't spend $250 a day in Egypt, I wouldn't even bother. I've been collecting the background information needed to start these business ideas, but I think the only circumstances under which I would actually implement them was if I could afford to do them just for the pleasure of doing them and not worry about crises in the industry. Maybe in 10 or 20 years I would do it, maybe never, but the rest of the market and the government has to pull its weight and I don't see them doing that now.

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3796
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1594 times
Been thanked: 1695 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by A-Four » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Glyphdoctor wrote: Compare that to San Francisco where the average tourist spends 4 times that amount.
Not so, if you remain within the Tenderloin district,........Glyph will get that one, even if the rest don't.

User avatar
Bearded Brian
Top Member
Top Member
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:17 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 660 times
Been thanked: 554 times
Gender:
Cambodia

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by Bearded Brian » Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:10 pm

Is the $61 (£40 approx.) including or excluding accommodation?

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3796
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1594 times
Been thanked: 1695 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by A-Four » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:24 pm

Bearded Brian wrote:Is the $61 (£40 approx.) including or excluding accommodation?
Oh Brian, certainly excluding accommodation, if you are in Twin Peaks, Castro, City Square, or even on the top of the hill at Mason, but then again if you do not want to stay in the Tenderloin, you could stay on the other side of the Bay, in somewhere like Richmond, better known as trailor trash city, for less than $10 per night,.............................. but do buy a gun. :wi :wi :wi :wi .

LovelyLadyLux
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3252
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:27 am
Has thanked: 985 times
Been thanked: 2256 times
Canada

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:20 am

If tourists are spending, on average, approximately $61/day that isn't enough to even warrant consideration of starting or maintaining a business based on tourism. That is not enough to sustain business and personally if I had a tourist business I wouldn't want to have to deal with all those moths flying about every time a wallet or purse was cracked open.

User avatar
HEPZIBAH
Luxor4u God
Luxor4u God
Posts: 11338
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:15 pm
Has thanked: 3058 times
Been thanked: 4278 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by HEPZIBAH » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:46 pm

Chocolate Eclair wrote:
Would you be happy to have to walk on the roads dodging traffic that is not regulated, due to the proper walking areas being in poor condition? ie Slabs missing, Kerbs where you need a ladder to get up and down, risen manhole covers that can trip you up, and litter and spit pools that you have to wade through in certain areas. (Its no good cleaning the Cornishe up), tourists use TV street and many other areas.

.
I know this thread is all about tourism in Luxor but, having just spent the last 9 days in Morocco I have to say that the pavement and kerb issues are not unique to Luxor. I think the same company who does such work is contracted in Egypt and Morocco! The advantage in Luxor is that the pavings overall are clean e.g outside cafes and takaway type places unlike the towns I visited last week.
Image Experience is not what happens to you;
it is what you do with what happens to you.
-Aldous Huxley

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3796
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1594 times
Been thanked: 1695 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by A-Four » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:56 pm

Just a general question here Hepzibah. Did you go to Tangiers, on the North coast of Morocco while there ?

User avatar
HEPZIBAH
Luxor4u God
Luxor4u God
Posts: 11338
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:15 pm
Has thanked: 3058 times
Been thanked: 4278 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by HEPZIBAH » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:05 pm

A-Four wrote:Just a general question here Hepzibah. Did you go to Tangiers, on the North coast of Morocco while there ?
No. Was inland of Casablanca much of this visit but the pavement, kerbs and indeed road situation is something I've noticed before for example in Marrakech.
Image Experience is not what happens to you;
it is what you do with what happens to you.
-Aldous Huxley

A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3796
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 1594 times
Been thanked: 1695 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by A-Four » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:36 am

The reason why I asked Hepzibah is that, back in the mid 70's, this place was where the so called rich moved to when the package tour co's started moving into Spain. I remember meeting up with my grandfather there, he was staying at the Rif Hotel, but thought it would be wise to clock his un-cultured grand son, as I am sure he regarded me then, into a less glamorous joint up the road, being the Cosmo, any how I digress.

Tangiers at that time was full of independent tourist, with loads of money, the beaches were wonderful, guaranteed sun almost all year round, fantastic culture for those who wanted it, even the Café du Paris opposite the French Consulate was full of people who were there 'to be seen'. The Medina was to die for, quite expensive items, though very good quality, and the whole place was clean and healthy, it even had a railway station.

I returned there only a few years ago, the whole place was a ghost town, believe me not one tourist, I know things move on but one would never expect this place to fall as it did,..............I am wondering here, has Luxor got something to learn from this.

User avatar
HEPZIBAH
Luxor4u God
Luxor4u God
Posts: 11338
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:15 pm
Has thanked: 3058 times
Been thanked: 4278 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Is it really because of the travel warnings?

Post by HEPZIBAH » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:14 am

The only place I really saw any tourists was at the Mohamed VI mosque in Casablanca where there seemed to be quite a lot of coaches. However, I arrived at about 4-30 pm and most were leaving as it was almost time for prayers. Even when I walked along the promanade in Casa another day I saw very few people that I would have thought were tourists, although it's fair to say that there appeared to be Morrocans on holiday - just not other nationaliities. This did surprise me a little.
Image Experience is not what happens to you;
it is what you do with what happens to you.
-Aldous Huxley

  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post
  • Luxor4u Managment Policy On Warnings
    by Connie Tindale » Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:28 am » in Warnings!!!
    0 Replies
    429 Views
    Last post by Connie Tindale
    Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:28 am
  • Warnings of 'infiltrators' during Tuesday demonstrations
    by DJKeefy » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:26 pm » in Politics and Religion
    1 Replies
    162 Views
    Last post by Teddyboy
    Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:09 am
  • Egypt 'ignored warnings of imminent attack' before deadly blast
    by DJKeefy » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:30 am » in Know Egypt
    13 Replies
    558 Views
    Last post by crewmeal
    Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:00 am
  • Travel
    by Major Thom » Tue May 19, 2015 9:37 am » in Living in Luxor
    47 Replies
    615 Views
    Last post by Dusak
    Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:08 pm
  • Petra travel
    by Daffers » Mon May 23, 2016 4:15 pm » in Visiting Luxor
    6 Replies
    155 Views
    Last post by Who2
    Mon May 23, 2016 8:11 pm