Is it Fair?

Get the best advice about your holiday in Luxor.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:32 pm

My Middle Finger wrote:Surely the title of this thread should be re-named "am I being fair"? given the debate (or otherwise) between Zooropa and TT, bearing in mind what Zooropa has said re his trip back to Luxor on Wednesday :ni:

Who are you flying with Zooropa?

Welcome My Middle Finger, nice to make your aquaintance.

Im not flying out on Wednesday.

I was trying to be ironic or funny.

Of course whether it or I is/was is debatable!



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What is "essential" travel?

Post by Brian Yare » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:37 pm

Amid all the fuss about whether one should or should not accept the advice of the FCO and other country's equivalent bodies, I have yet to see any definition of what is "essential" travel.

I would suggest that the only travel that could be deemed "essential" is to get oneself out of harm's way.

Just having a business or family interest does not count as an essential reason for travel i.m.h.o.

What do others consider to be "essential"

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:54 pm

I would agree with your definition Brian

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by My Middle Finger » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:55 pm

Ah Irony, I see :)))

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Who2 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:12 pm

The word essential will only matter when you try to claim on your 'so-called insurance policy.
It's all contained within the small print....:cool:
Ps: did victorian travellers have insurance policies ? one doubts it but then they had a sense of adventure about them, rather than worrying if red barrel is on tap...
"The Salvation of Mankind lies in making everything the responsibility of All"
Sophocles.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:48 pm

No Zooropa, Give ME strength!

With regard to 'making things up or reading things incorrectly'.

My comment, the validity of which you dispute was:-

'You think I am inconsiderate and selfish to be going to Luxor without insurance and you think that I am putting the lives of other people at risk in doing so'.

Your comments which led to my conclusion were:-

'You have decided not to follow the alert and I couldn't give a monkeys how much tax you pay, in my opinion you have no damned rights at all when it comes to expecting to be rescued! And to expect that right in that situation is arrogant and selfish'.

Followed by:-

I repeat in my opinion it's selfish and arrogant to expect others to risk their safety because you have decided to ignore proffesional (sic) advice and have gone ahead and put yourself in harms way. It's hardly considerate is it?'

And yet again:-

'You don't think it's selfish or arrogant to potentially put yourself at risk and then expect others to put themselves at risk although you have been warned and you feel the fact that you pay tax entitles you to do that and that's your opinion'.

In fact the only way in which my assertion was at all inaccurate is that you don't actually mention insurance. Otherwise I don't see how you can dispute it at all.

And as I will repeat once and for all. In going to Luxor now I don't consider that I will be putting myself in harm's way. I avoid any Brotherhood protests which are few in Luxor as the Luxor contingent are generally bussed up to Cairo to join the protests there. I do not participate in ANY protests, or go near the vacinity in which they are occurring. In fact, I and the majority of my friends remained safely locked indoors whenever there was any kind of demonstration due to take place. Incidentally the anti-Morsi protests or rather, rallies, have by all accounts been friendly affairs with no hostility to tourists. They want Tourists back!

And I do not EXPECT to be rescued. I have no expectation of ever needing to be. I would still be going whether there was an evacuation plan in place or not. And incidentally, the Army do not apparently EXPECT to have to evacuate anybody from Luxor either. They are obliged to have a plan in place, but they consider it highly improbable that they will have to implement it. And they are not advising ex-pats to leave, so presumably they do not consider it unsafe for us to be there. But if things do escalate in Luxor I will be leaving without delay-there are plenty of flights from Hurghada. But in the extremely unlikely event of an evacuation being offered and advised I may or may not accept depending on severity of the situation and the alternatives available to me. Should I go with it I would be happy to pay, but if this were not required I would feel grateful but not guilty because most of us do pay for such services through our taxes and NI. And I have already acknowledged that I would be liable for any medical expenses incurred as a result of any illness or accident for which I am not insured. I have made all of this very clear already I think.

So what,exactly, Zooropa is your problem? Do you really think my attitude is so reprehensible? And when you asked your 'Is it fair?' question were you really interested to know what other forum members think or were you merely looking for an opportunity to present an argument that it isn't?

And personally I would say that your little 'joke' was more an example of sarcasm than irony. Just as well you're not actually going though. In the current climate I probably wouldn't be the only ex-pat who would find your overtly critical and moralising attitude annoying!

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:03 pm

Yawn! Yawn! I didn't mention insurance because its got nothing to do with the point I was making.

Once again your making things up!

As for ex pats, I could not care less, I don't seek or need their or your approval on comments I make or travel plans I may make.

But I wont be visiting while the FCO is in place.

And if you have no intention of asking for aid if needed then my original comments don't apply to you.

So why did you start arguing?

Back peddling methinks!

Once again, whether you have insurance has nothing to do with it.

Not having it only potentially effects you, not the safety of others.

I repeat, if anyone travels having been told its not advisable and then expects as a right to be rescued and to put other people at risk is...

selfish and arrogant.

If that's your view then I apply it to you.

If not then I don't.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Distant Sun » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:49 pm

This thread is just another example of what keeps all the longer standing members of the forum away - time to move on!

DS

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:56 pm

Me "Is it fair?"
Grandma "It must be as it's not raining!"

Sorry, couldn't resist as I think of my grandma every time I see this thread crop up. :D
Image Experience is not what happens to you;
it is what you do with what happens to you.
-Aldous Huxley

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Re: What is "essential" travel?

Post by Scottishtourist » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:59 pm

Brian Yare wrote:Amid all the fuss about whether one should or should not accept the advice of the FCO and other country's equivalent bodies, I have yet to see any definition of what is "essential" travel.

I would suggest that the only travel that could be deemed "essential" is to get oneself out of harm's way.

Just having a business or family interest does not count as an essential reason for travel i.m.h.o.

What do others consider to be "essential"
I'd like to see this as separate topic.
Are there any forum members who have knowledge of the insurance business and could advise?
What constitutes "essential"travel?
A wedding?A funeral?A crisis at "home."
I just have general travel insurance through my bank account...but even they can't explain what would be deemed as "essential"travel.
They're definite though that a holiday is NOT.
So...is the term "essential"interchangeable with "not at all?"

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:23 pm

Distant Sun wrote:This thread is just another example of what keeps all the longer standing members of the forum away - time to move on!

DS
Its a forum for debating issues and that's what this thread has been doing so if the "long standing" members have been staying away then its because they don't want to debate.

As another forum member has said before, if there were no disagreements then it would be a newsletter.

I think regular posters are responsible for keeping this site interesting.

The "long standing members" who no longer post are not.

Although I do agree its time to move on.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:35 pm

Trust me Zooropa, |I'm finding this ridiculous circular argument every bit as tedious as you are. Now tell me what exactly am I 'making up?'
I've given verbatim quotes of your statements in which you accuse myself and anybody travelling to Luxor now whilst the FCO advice is in force as 'arrogant and selfish' no less than three times across three separate posts! And yes, you do personalise it because in posts responding to my posts you actually say 'YOU' numerous times i.e

YOU have decided not to follow the alert and I couldn't give a monkey's how much tax YOU pay, In my opinion YOU have no damned rights at all when it comes to be expecting to be rescued'

or,
...it's selfish and arrogant to expect others to risk their lives because YOU have decided to ignore proffesional advice and put YOURSELF in harms way......

and most specifically,

'YOU don't think it's selfish or arrogant to potentially put YOURSELF at risk and then expect others to put themselves at risk although YOU have been warned and YOU feel the fact that YOU pay tax entitles YOU to do that and that's YOUR opinion....

So, if you weren't talking both to and about me then who the hell were you talking to? You are just being disingenuous and resorting to semantics to argue that you haven't said what you patently have said, because it's there in black and white, or that you weren't personalising any of your statements which you patently were!

So, who exactly is back peddling?

And it's those assumptions and allegations which I object to, coupled with your very deprecating language. Not your opinions as such. They don't carry much weight with me but I would never deny that you have a right express them. Appropriately!

And that's my final word on this most unpleasant little debate. So by all means move on. I don't think anybody would argue that it will be a blessed relief! Let's just hope that we never meet in person Zooropa! Unless, (God forbid!) we already have!

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:48 pm

Thanks for the debate it was interesting.

My final word (again) is the fact that I never commented on your decision re insurance.

Not once.

That's the part you made up.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Distant Sun » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:25 pm

It is not I think the debate in itself which deters more long standing members from posting.

What I believe does put people off though is the tone to which the debate descends.

DS

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:36 pm

Well im involved in this particular debate so it wouldn't be fair to comment.

But on all the other threads, and I do read them all and have for several years ive only ever seen one or maybe two that I personally thought may have been beyond the pale.

In my opinion its mostly spirited debate and perhaps some former members have rather thin skins.

There is hardly a word that can be uttered that someone, somewhere would not object to.

I think sometimes people mistake humour for seriousness.

After all several people actually thought I was serious about me flying out there!

Generally speaking I can not genuinely detect any "descending"

Can you point to any examples Distant?

I mean from the past, despite what anyone may think about this debate, they didn't all stop posting in the last few days.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:29 pm

Zooropa,

Obviously I have not made a 'decision' to travel uninsured. My annual, repeating travel insurance has been rendered invalid by my decision to return to Luxor whilst the FCO advice is in force. The two things are inter-connected. I thought you would have appreciated this. And I acknowledge that it is my decision to travel against the current FCO advice which you consider to be so 'selfish and arrogant'.

The consul for Luxor apparently agrees that the classification in respect of Luxor is inappropriate and is endeavouring to have it changed back to green. Hopefully that will soon happen.

It was either magnanimous or sarcastic of you to refer to our 'debate' as 'interesting'. I honestly don't know which. Sadly, I cannot agree. It wasn't interesting-it was quite nasty and I wouldn't want to have to repeat the experience. Or subject other posters to it. So, apologies to them in that regard.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by BENNU » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:55 pm

Zooropa wrote:
Distant Sun wrote:This thread is just another example of what keeps all the longer standing members of the forum away - time to move on!

DS
Its a forum for debating issues and that's what this thread has been doing so if the "long standing" members have been staying away then its because they don't want to debate.
Long standing members want to debate, but this is not a friendly debate.

:(

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:18 pm

timetraveller wrote:
The consul for Luxor apparently agrees that the classification in respect of Luxor is inappropriate and is endeavouring to have it changed back to green. Hopefully that will soon happen.
Who might that be? I thought there was no longer any UK Consul in Luxor.
Image Experience is not what happens to you;
it is what you do with what happens to you.
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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by LivinginLuxor » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:53 am

True - there is no consul in Luxor - there was a honorary consul in the recently ennobled Mr.Gaddis, but he had to step down as it became illegal for an Egyptian national to hold such an office. I think TT was referring to a meeting with an official from the Embassy in Cairo, who local wardens met with.

And if the FCO, in its infinite wisdom, considered it necessary to evacuate me, I would definitely expect them to pay for it! I have no intention whatsoever of returning 'home', or finding a bolt-hole in another country, so if I thought I was being forced to leave by the FCO's words, it would be up to them to pay for such repatriation.
I might agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong!
Stan

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:57 am

Sorry, he might not actually be the Consul, but an FCO representative for Luxor. Aside from meeting with the wardens he posts updates on the situation regarding protests and FCO position on Facebook. I think his name might be Chris? I'm sure people should be able to contact him via their respective Wardens should they feel the need to.

I don't think the FCO can force you to be evacuated LLL. I would imagine that they would prefer people to go if the situation should become dangerous because then they can get everybody out quickly and efficiently and have the security of knowing who is safe and accounted for. Less likelihood of having to deal with the much greater inconvenience, expense and general 'fallout' which would result from the death/s of British Nationals or possible 'hostage' situations. But, I doubt if they can force you to leave. Although the Egyptian Govt. obviously can.

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