Is it Fair?

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:19 pm

It would be interesting to ask any army member or indeed an official spokesperson what the army is there for.

I may be wrong but i dont think the first answer would be to rescue people who have travelled to an area that they were advised not to go to in the first place.

I would guess they are more likely to say they are there to defend the country from military threat.



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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by BENNU » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:29 pm

Well, the question was:
Is it fair to travel against your countries advice?


I would be surprised, if the Danish army would show up - we don't even have wardens, as far as I know. :lol:

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:10 pm

Zooropa, I don't think that you need to be 'the most literate person in the world' to know that the terms you were using were offensive. But you chose to use them. And in one of your posts it did read very much as though they were specific to me. By all means do find more appropriate alternatives.

And if you had been in Luxor recently you would be aware that there are many ex-pats who do think the FCO's present classification of Luxor is inappropriate, and several have made representations in this regard. Being 'on the ground' so to speak many would argue that they are in a position to know better than the FCO. And the FCO representative for Luxor apparently agreed and was endeavouring to get Luxor re-classified. This has yet to happen.

And as you are aware, I am not suggesting that you refrain from expressing your opinion, just that you respect the opinion of others and do not resort to insults. If you are unable to do this, then I think you should keep your counsel. It is not reasonable to insult people and expect them not to object to it. And yes, I was rude to you. In retaliation!. Not nice is it?

And with regard to the role of the Army? My understanding is that there is a specific team dealing with the evacuation of British Citizens. This is a role that has been traditionally assumed by the British Army. The country is not continuously at war, and not all soldiers are continually engaged in active service. In fact the Army fulfill a number of roles, particularly in peacetime. If you have issue with this then perhaps you should take it up with the relevant authorities.

And why on earth would I not raise Luxor as an example in response to your question 'Is it fair to travel against your countries advice? Discuss'. After all, you asked it on a forum called 'Luxor 4u'! And Luxor is currently on the 'essential travel only' list. Why then would you not expect people to discuss the question in relation to Luxor?

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:05 am

I did not say you could not raise Luxor as an example, i said you chose to raise it which is fine, please read posts properly and dont make up things to support your argument.

I do think its selfish and arrogant to expect people to risk their safety to rescue someone who has ignored advice, so thats why i stated it.

For the record i dont think, from my limited knowledge Luxor is unsafe to any large extent but i would personally think myself arrogant to think i had access to the kind of information that the FCO have.

Id certainly be far more comfy consulting them rather than you.

As to the army, well my taxes pay for them as well and i feel im entitled to have a view on how they are used. Whilst you may have the upper hand over me when it comes to knowledge of luxor it would be very unlikely you could say the same about the military, i know an awful lot about the military and at a time when we have seen the biggest ever cuts to the army in my opinion i think they should be used for the main reason that most think they are meant for rather than running around rescuing idiots who have visited hotspots against advice.

Not people who need assistance because events have occured whilst they were there, those that went with the knowledge and against advice.

Thats a general comment and not aimed specificaly at Luxor or any overly emotional people attached to it.

Im not bothered about your tone, you considered it rude but i was not offended because i found it to be irrelevant.

I dont know, perhaps im in the minority but how else would you describe putting other people at risk knowing, that before hand that you may well be doing so if not selfish?

Like i said previously its hardly considerate is it?

Whilst we are at it, how would describe someone who thinks that they know better than the FCO?

Its not as simple as the general tone on the street and the number of demos and disturbances, its also about what any large political/para military forces may or may not be planning, its also about events that may well unfold as a result of a political outcome which the FCO would have a better line of sight of than the person on the street.

I meant no offence to you or anyone else but as i said previously i think the comments are fair.

I could equally say that im offended by anyone who thinks its ok to take a risk and knowing that to do so could risk other peoples safety.

But that would stifle the debate.

As you have demonstrated its too easy nowadays to play the offence card as a means to defend ones position.

Ive stated my opinion and argued the reasons why and argued with your reasons. You have suggested that ive deliberatly been offensive, i have not, i just refuse to back off a view point because the offence card has been played.

I could have said inconsiderate instead of arrogant and i could have substituted selfish with self centered but it amounts to the same thing.

Just because someone takes offence does not mean it is so.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by BENNU » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:00 am

Zooropa wrote:I did not say you could not raise Luxor as an example, i said you chose to raise it which is fine, please read posts properly and dont make up things to support your argument.

I do think its selfish and arrogant to expect people to risk their safety to rescue someone who has ignored advice, so thats why i stated it.
You have chosen to post, with very few words, in the "Visiting Luxor" forum. :o

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:04 am

And just because you deny something you said was offensive does not mean that it wasn't, It just means that you do not have the decency to own it! Calling people 'arrogant' and 'selfish' because you don't personally agree with what they choose to do might well be considered as offensive. And quite arrogant come to that! Your opinion is just that. Nothing more.

You think I am inconsiderate and selfish to be going to Luxor without insurance and you think I am putting the lives of other people at risk in doing so. You've rammed that point home quite enough I think. Quite who's life I am likely to be endangering I'm not sure. I have no expectation of needing to be evacuated by the Army and may not even opt to accept if this were offered. I disagree with you and do not think you are making your accusations from from a fully informed standpoint because you haven't been there to judge the situation for yourself. Whether to return to Luxor right now is my personal decision to make just as it is for anybody else in the same situation. It's not an ideal situation and not an easy decision to make. It's unlikely to be made any easier by sanctimonious attitudes like yours! Don't presume to set yourself up as judge and jury. I would suggest that you make the decision for yourself in this regard and allow other people to do likewise! And that is what I would call 'fair'.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Jane Akshar » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:03 am

We only have a travel advisory 'essential travel only' but Syria has a huge just don't go there. However someone I know is making plans to visit her family there. Loads of people travel to countries that red not merely yellow like Egypt. People with family members or jobs. I listen to radio 4 and there was an interview with someone working for an NGO in Yemen, he was staying put and working.

These people make their own plans and have no intention of paying over the top fares for the British gov to get them to places whilst they might be outside the danger zone there is no accommodation provided or onward travel. The evacuation last time was from Cairo only, cost loads and went to Jordan.

I don't expect the British gov to wipe my a r s e no matter what taxes i have paid
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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by My Middle Finger » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:20 am

The FCO says "advise against all but essential travel". Can anyone on here honestly say they always take ALL the advice they are given. You listen to the advice given, maybe get other opinions/help elsewhere and make your own decision.

Is it fair? yes in my opinion, if it were not, the FCO would advise everyone to leave (including ex-pats), but they haven't, why? I would suggest the reason is, they appreciate that people who live there, are more likely to be sensible and not do anything stupid and not put themselves in harms way, but this would IMO also apply to the well healed tourist, who may have been to Luxor many times, so whats the difference? none.

Just my opinion for what its worth.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:40 am

timetraveller wrote:And just because you deny something you said was offensive does not mean that it wasn't, It just means that you do not have the decency to own it! Calling people 'arrogant' and 'selfish' because you don't personally agree with what they choose to do might well be considered as offensive. And quite arrogant come to that! Your opinion is just that. Nothing more.

You think I am inconsiderate and selfish to be going to Luxor without insurance and you think I am putting the lives of other people at risk in doing so. You've rammed that point home quite enough I think. Quite who's life I am likely to be endangering I'm not sure. I have no expectation of needing to be evacuated by the Army and may not even opt to accept if this were offered. I disagree with you and do not think you are making your accusations from from a fully informed standpoint because you haven't been there to judge the situation for yourself. Whether to return to Luxor right now is my personal decision to make just as it is for anybody else in the same situation. It's not an ideal situation and not an easy decision to make. It's unlikely to be made any easier by sanctimonious attitudes like yours! Don't presume to set yourself up as judge and jury. I would suggest that you make the decision for yourself in this regard and allow other people to do likewise! And that is what I would call 'fair'.
"And just because you deny something you said was offensive does not mean that it wasn't, It just means that you do not have the decency to own it!"

Of course, a correct if obvious statement, it may or may not be offensive depending on your own viewpoint, how can I not own it? its there for all to see!
However, for the record, I own and standby it!

"Calling people 'arrogant' and 'selfish' because you don't personally agree with what they choose to do might well be considered as offensive."

Agree, a point I think you already made with different words on the first line of the post, I could, and quite often do refer to murderers and child molesters as "nasty and evil" that too, could be considered offensive to the person accused.

"Your opinion is just that. Nothing more."

Yawn!, but agree, a point ive made several times, but thanks for acknowledging!

"You think I am inconsiderate and selfish to be going to Luxor without insurance"

Err, no I do not and have never ever stated that, oops, try/read it again! - should have gone to specsavers!

"and you think I am putting the lives of other people at risk in doing so."

Not necessarily, only if you require assistance from the FCO - which as ive already said, with my limited knowledge of the situation is unlikely, but, in my opinion still not fair on them as you have been warned of the increased risk.

"I have no expectation of needing to be evacuated by the Army and may not even opt to accept if this were offered."

For your sake, lets hope you are right, and I think you probably are, if you did not accept the offer I might well consider that very noble and considerate but I assume for the sake of consistency you would object to me saying that because although its a positive judgement its still a judgement all the same!

"Whether to return to Luxor right now is my personal decision to make just as it is for anybody else in the same situation."

Agree

"I disagree with you and do not think you are making your accusations from from a fully informed standpoint because you haven't been there to judge the situation for yourself."

I don't need to be there, but as ive said I was when it all kicked off, the FCO are driving my opinion as I consider them, for reasons already stated, better informed than you without the obvious added complication of actually wanting to go there.

"Don't presume to set yourself up as judge and jury."

Moot point, we all judge things and people! If I or anyone else was to and in fact quite often does say to someone "I think you are wrong about that" or "I don't think that's the right attitude" then we are judging.

If I had said I agreed with your decision to go and to hell with the consequences I think you would very probably not accuse me of judging you because it was positive, but its still a judgement.

In a previous post you also said I was "moralising."

True, but then again we all moralise, no doubt you would consider a rapist as evil and horid, I would agree, but it does not alter the fact that you would have made that call because it violated your own moral code, although, without doubt a correct assessment its still moralising!

"I would suggest that you make the decision for yourself in this regard and allow other people to do likewise! And that is what I would call 'fair'"

Agree, and good advice if I may "judge" you on it.

And I have made that decision, I fly out on Wednesday!

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:40 am

timetraveller wrote:And just because you deny something you said was offensive does not mean that it wasn't, It just means that you do not have the decency to own it! Calling people 'arrogant' and 'selfish' because you don't personally agree with what they choose to do might well be considered as offensive. And quite arrogant come to that! Your opinion is just that. Nothing more.

You think I am inconsiderate and selfish to be going to Luxor without insurance and you think I am putting the lives of other people at risk in doing so. You've rammed that point home quite enough I think. Quite who's life I am likely to be endangering I'm not sure. I have no expectation of needing to be evacuated by the Army and may not even opt to accept if this were offered. I disagree with you and do not think you are making your accusations from from a fully informed standpoint because you haven't been there to judge the situation for yourself. Whether to return to Luxor right now is my personal decision to make just as it is for anybody else in the same situation. It's not an ideal situation and not an easy decision to make. It's unlikely to be made any easier by sanctimonious attitudes like yours! Don't presume to set yourself up as judge and jury. I would suggest that you make the decision for yourself in this regard and allow other people to do likewise! And that is what I would call 'fair'.
"And just because you deny something you said was offensive does not mean that it wasn't, It just means that you do not have the decency to own it!"

Of course, a correct if obvious statement, it may or may not be offensive depending on your own viewpoint, how can I not own it? its there for all to see!
However, for the record, I own and standby it!

"Calling people 'arrogant' and 'selfish' because you don't personally agree with what they choose to do might well be considered as offensive."

Agree, a point I think you already made with different words on the first line of the post, I could, and quite often do refer to murderers and child molesters as "nasty and evil" that too, could be considered offensive to the person accused.

"Your opinion is just that. Nothing more."

Yawn!, but agree, a point ive made several times, but thanks for acknowledging!

"You think I am inconsiderate and selfish to be going to Luxor without insurance"

Err, no I did not, oops, try/read it again! - should have gone to specsavers!

"and you think I am putting the lives of other people at risk in doing so."

Not necessarily, only if you require assistance from the FCO - which as ive already said, with my limited knowledge of the situation is unlikely, but, in my opinion still not fair on them as you have been warned of the increased risk.

"I have no expectation of needing to be evacuated by the Army and may not even opt to accept if this were offered."

For your sake, lets hope you are right, and I think you probably are, if you did not accept the offer I might well consider that very noble and considerate but I assume for the sake of consistency you would object to me saying that because although its a positive judgement its still a judgement all the same!

"Whether to return to Luxor right now is my personal decision to make just as it is for anybody else in the same situation."

Agree

"I disagree with you and do not think you are making your accusations from from a fully informed standpoint because you haven't been there to judge the situation for yourself."

I don't need to be there, but as ive said I was when it all kicked off, the FCO are driving my opinion as I consider them, for reasons already stated, better informed than you without the obvious added complication of actually wanting to go there.

"Don't presume to set yourself up as judge and jury."

Moot point, we all judge things and people! If I or anyone else was to and in fact quite often does say to someone "I think you are wrong about that" or "I don't think that's the right attitude" then we are judging.

If I had said I agreed with your decision to go and to hell with the consequences I think you would very probably not accuse me of judging you because it was positive, but its still a judgement.

In a previous post you also said I was "moralising."

True, but then again we all moralise, no doubt you would consider a rapist as evil and horid, I would agree, but it does not alter the fact that you would have made that call because it violated your own moral code, although, without doubt a correct assessment its still moralising!

"I would suggest that you make the decision for yourself in this regard and allow other people to do likewise! And that is what I would call 'fair'"

Agree, and good advice if I may "judge" you on it.

And I have made that decision, I fly out on Wednesday!

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:27 pm

Can you really, Zooropa, in all conscience compare someone who travels against FCO advice with 'murderers and child molesters' and then again, later, a 'rapist'. What you appear to be saying is that if it's OK to moralise about and judge their behaviour it's similarly OK to judge mine and presumably anybody else planning to travel against FCO advice. Well pardon me, but I if you really can't draw a distinction there then I would suggest that your 'moral compass' needs some serious adjustment. Murder, child molestation and rape are all heinous CRIMES. Such criminals deserve to be judged, and when they are caught they generally are-by a group of their fellow citizens, known as a JURY. Such criminals seriously violate the law of the land in committing serious offences 'against the person' to quote the legalese. I have just chosen to travel against FCO advice. This is not a crime or offence against anybody, and therefore not deserving of such criticism or comparisons. In short, my decision to make, nobody else's. I have no need of your approval and your personal assessment of my decision is consequently immaterial.

And as for your very immature comments about ''should have gone to Specsavers' and the like, I would suggest that it is you who needs to re-read your own posts. You infer that I am boring you and being repetitive. But you have used the terms 'selfish', 'not very considerate' and 'arrogant' several times in your long, rambling and repetitive posts. And as to what you have actually stated. Well how about:-

'I repeat, in my opinion it is selfish and arrogant to expect others to risk their safety because you have decided to ignore proffesional (sic) advice and gone ahead and put yourself in harms way'. and, 'It's hardly considerate is it?'.

So tell me again what I| need to re-read!

And can you seriously mean to say that after all you have said you are flying out yourself? On Wednesday? To Luxor? Has the FCO advice been lifted since yesterday or are you planning to go regardless? If it's the latter, then presumably, by your own analysis, this would make you what? Selfish, arrogant and inconsiderate? Expecting others to risk their safety? Might be appropriate add hypocritical to that list as well! :lol:



'

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by My Middle Finger » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:41 pm

Surely the title of this thread should be re-named "am I being fair"? given the debate (or otherwise) between Zooropa and TT, bearing in mind what Zooropa has said re his trip back to Luxor on Wednesday :ni:

Who are you flying with Zooropa?

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by TAL777 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:20 pm

Good question. As far as I can see, unless you have business interests in Luxor then the trip could wait a few months, or weeks. There are other places to go in the world, although there seems to be a growing number of 'unsettled' countries at present.

Regardless of whether or not you can get travel insurance, then the question remains as to whether it seems safe enough to visit. Insurance isn't much good to you, when you're dead...Most people won't have local information about Luxor as all the news reports are Cairo-centric.

The FCO and the airlines have acted on this. We cannot be sure, but this might already have prevented a tourist or tourists being put in harms way or being killed.

The other point to remember is that the Egyptian authorities already do alot to protect tourists. Even in 'normal' times hotels and cruise boats have a security presence (along the Corniche), which is quite heavy at the larger hotels. Now that things are more unstable they realise that this protection might become stretched...

Of course the last thing Egypt wants is a tourist death, far worse than a few months of Luxor being 'closed'...

And if you do go, I would hope you don't expect the SAS to come and rescue you..Even if it is for David Cameron's benefit..

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Bombay » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:33 pm

TAL777 wrote:Good question. As far as I can see, unless you have business interests in Luxor then the trip could wait a few months, or weeks. There are other places to go in the world, although there seems to be a growing number of 'unsettled' countries at present.

Regardless of whether or not you can get travel insurance, then the question remains as to whether it seems safe enough to visit. Insurance isn't much good to you, when you're dead...Most people won't have local information about Luxor as all the news reports are Cairo-centric.

The FCO and the airlines have acted on this. We cannot be sure, but this might already have prevented a tourist or tourists being put in harms way or being killed.

The other point to remember is that the Egyptian authorities already do alot to protect tourists. Even in 'normal' times hotels and cruise boats have a security presence (along the Corniche), which is quite heavy at the larger hotels. Now that things are more unstable they realise that this protection might become stretched...

Of course the last thing Egypt wants is a tourist death, far worse than a few months of Luxor being 'closed'...

And if you do go, I would hope you don't expect the SAS to come and rescue you..Even if it is for David Cameron's benefit..
That security has been minimal for the last 2.5 years at best. You are correct about anyone being killed.

If the **** hit the fan then people would have the option to be evacuated the plan is already in place,

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:37 pm

TAL777 wrote:
Regardless of whether or not you can get travel insurance, then the question remains as to whether it seems safe enough to visit. Insurance isn't much good to you, when you're dead...Most people won't have local information about Luxor as all the news reports are Cairo-centric.

.
But being insured in such a case would be of great benefit to your dependents, family or whoever has to deal with your affairs after your death, including decisions about repatriation, funeral etc.

Personally, I could not go away knowing I was not suitably insured as I could not risk leaving others with financial burdens that I should have been responsible enough to deal with.
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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Who2 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:40 pm

Well Iv'e lost count the times going to and from blighty never once having had insurance except in the early days when I was ripping them, then it became popular so I stopped.....:cool:
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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:49 pm

Who2 wrote:Well Iv'e lost count the times going to and from blighty never once having had insurance except in the early days when I was ripping them, then it became popular so I stopped.....:cool:
But at least you have done that as a conscious personal decision.

At the moment I think there are still many people who are travelling believing they are insured and actually may well not be because they have not double checked their own policy and travel circumstances.

Choosing not to take out travel, or any other insurance, is a good cost cutting exercise BUT ...we only have ourselves to blame if we don't take it out and then find ourselves in a situation where the costs e.g medical, repatriation etc. are way beyond our own means.
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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Bombay » Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:31 pm

BENNU wrote:Well, the question was:
Is it fair to travel against your countries advice?


I would be surprised, if the Danish army would show up - we don't even have wardens, as far as I know. :lol:
If you turned up the Brits would take you.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by TAL777 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:46 pm

The point I was raising about travel insurance is that it doesn't actually protect you from being attacked, killed or injured.....that is up to you to try to avoid in the first instance.. :br

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:27 pm

timetraveller wrote:Can you really, Zooropa, in all conscience compare someone who travels against FCO advice with 'murderers and child molesters' and then again, later, a 'rapist'. What you appear to be saying is that if it's OK to moralise about and judge their behaviour it's similarly OK to judge mine and presumably anybody else planning to travel against FCO advice. Well pardon me, but I if you really can't draw a distinction there then I would suggest that your 'moral compass' needs some serious adjustment. Murder, child molestation and rape are all heinous CRIMES. Such criminals deserve to be judged, and when they are caught they generally are-by a group of their fellow citizens, known as a JURY. Such criminals seriously violate the law of the land in committing serious offences 'against the person' to quote the legalese. I have just chosen to travel against FCO advice. This is not a crime or offence against anybody, and therefore not deserving of such criticism or comparisons. In short, my decision to make, nobody else's. I have no need of your approval and your personal assessment of my decision is consequently immaterial.

And as for your very immature comments about ''should have gone to Specsavers' and the like, I would suggest that it is you who needs to re-read your own posts. You infer that I am boring you and being repetitive. But you have used the terms 'selfish', 'not very considerate' and 'arrogant' several times in your long, rambling and repetitive posts. And as to what you have actually stated. Well how about:-

'I repeat, in my opinion it is selfish and arrogant to expect others to risk their safety because you have decided to ignore proffesional (sic) advice and gone ahead and put yourself in harms way'. and, 'It's hardly considerate is it?'.

So tell me again what I| need to re-read!

And can you seriously mean to say that after all you have said you are flying out yourself? On Wednesday? To Luxor? Has the FCO advice been lifted since yesterday or are you planning to go regardless? If it's the latter, then presumably, by your own analysis, this would make you what? Selfish, arrogant and inconsiderate? Expecting others to risk their safety? Might be appropriate add hypocritical to that list as well! :lol:



'

"Can you really, Zooropa, in all conscience compare someone who travels against FCO advice with 'murderers and child molesters' and then again, later, a 'rapist'."


Er no, im not, the comparison is not in the action its in the label, meaning you can only describe someone in terms of how you see them or how you perceive their actions.

Obviously the comparison is not (and I think your intelligent enough to realise) about what you are proposing to do being anything like the other terrible acts mentioned.

Comparisons are often colourful to help illustrate the point being made, I was not likening you to those people.

"What you appear to be saying is that if it's OK to moralise about and judge their behaviour it's similarly OK to judge mine"

No, what im saying that is that most, if not all of us judge people all the time in one form or another only most people only label it as "judging" when what one has to say is negative, if its positive nothing gets said.

"And as for your very immature comments about ''should have gone to Specsavers' and the like, I would suggest that it is you who needs to re-read your own posts. You infer that I am boring you and being repetitive. But you have used the terms 'selfish', 'not very considerate' and 'arrogant' several times in your long, rambling and repetitive posts. And as to what you have actually stated. Well how about:-

'I repeat, in my opinion it is selfish and arrogant to expect others to risk their safety because you have decided to ignore proffesional (sic) advice and gone ahead and put yourself in harms way'. and, 'It's hardly considerate is it?'.

So tell me again what I| need to re-read!"

You can call it immature if you like, it was exasperation as id already called you to order on making things up or reading things incorrectly.

I cant tell you what part you need to re read, its presumably the part where you think I said you were selfish and arrogant to travel without insurance. Since I never said I cant tell you what part to read.

I didn't say it!

"And can you seriously mean to say that after all you have said you are flying out yourself? On Wednesday? To Luxor? Has the FCO advice been lifted since yesterday or are you planning to go regardless? If it's the latter, then presumably, by your own analysis, this would make you what? Selfish, arrogant and inconsiderate? Expecting others to risk their safety? Might be appropriate add hypocritical to that list as well! :lol:"

GIVE ME STRENGTH.

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