Is it Fair?

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:17 am

BENNU wrote:
Zooropa wrote:It amazes me that a lot of people are preoccupied with their own well being re health insurance and most don't seem to be bothered about the main suggestion in the question I asked which was putting others at risk because they themselves have decided to risk it!

Wow....
This is your original post: Is it fair

To travel against your countries advice?

Discuss.....

- You could have been a little more clear when inviting to a discussion.
I didn't want to narrow the debate to start and I was interested to see what angle people approached it at and sadly, in my opinion, some chose to consider it from their own perspective exclusively.

However I did elaborate on my way of thinking several times soon after the thread started so I think ive been clear enough.



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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by dsaxelby » Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:56 am

I heard a story now apologise if I tell it wrong! An expat asked a friend (think it was Laura, sorry Laura if it was not you) to defend her property, this person went to the property there was an altercation involving the police, the friend ended up in prison, other expats sent food via McDonalds to her. Something you cannot insure against, was it fair? Life is not fair who ever said it should be? but respect to the friend and the expats who supported her :up

People on this forum say to the expats, its not your country, you have no rights, your opinion is not valid, imagine if we said this to the immigrants that have moved home to make the UK their home... Just saying :cg
It is what it is.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Angela » Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:01 am

A few people have discussed what would happen if they ever had to be evacuated from Egypt? Some members mentioned that they've paid their NI and tax and hence entitled to this service which I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with but...is this service actually offered free of charge to British Nationals? In January 2011 the US decide to evacuate their citizens. The chartered a plane, flew them as far as Cyprus where they then had to pay to get themselves from Cyprus back to the US and were also billed for the flight from Egypt to Cyprus (not Easyjet prices either :o )

So would this not be the case for the British as well? That's is down to us to pay the cost of an evacuation should it ever happen? :ni:

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:08 am

Ive no idea Angela, knowing this country I would not be surprised if it was free.

I would not argue that it would be wrong to be rescued free of charge in those circumstances.

Its when people knowingly put themselves in harms way when they have been warned that there is an increased risk then expect help that I object to.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:11 am

Zooropa wrote:
timetraveller wrote:Well, I'm going back to Egypt uninsured because of the FCO advice.

Am I missing something?

Why would you want travel insurance for when you are at "home" ?

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by BENNU » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:35 am

Zooropa wrote:
Zooropa wrote:
timetraveller wrote:Well, I'm going back to Egypt uninsured because of the FCO advice.

Am I missing something?

Why would you want travel insurance for when you are at "home" ?
Some of us have more than one home.

In my case this means that I have home etc insurance plus a rather expensive health insurance in my European home country and an annual travel insurance because I travel a lot. Though it is only rented, I do have a home in Egypt, it feels like home, I call it home and that is where I choose to wake up most mornings of the year.

When I first came to Luxor and decided to stay, I did have some illusions, but when I leave the house, I consider myself a long term guest, grateful of being tolerated.

I am sure that someone will have a problem with this.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Angela » Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:12 pm

We have Long stay insurance with Top Dog Insurance in the past (prior to FCO advice). We return to to the the UK for three months of the year when DH does some contract work. My children go and stay with Grandparents at Christmas and spend three weeks there. So DH and I usually have long stay and they have a series of short term ones. There was a clause in the policy that stated that the policy holder had to be a resident in the UK for 6 months prior to starting the policy which to us was a bit vague. I mean, what did they class as "resident?" Somebody who was classed as ordinarily resident for tax purposes? A new arrival to the UK with indefinite leave to remain in the UK? What if they had been abroad during that 6 months prior to your policy? How long were you allowed to be away during the 6 months prior to the policy? A week? Month? Not at all?

Anyway we grilled them and got written confirmation that as we are classed as Ordinarily resident in the UK (we return frequently, I work for a UK employer) we are effectively Ordinarily residents and hence we can take the long term policy. This 6 months thing is apparently to stop foreigners who have just arrived in the country taking out policies then going back to their country of origin with a policy to cover them for medical treatment.

The 6 month thing is deliberately misleading and a bit vague so you have to verify it with them. Granted our situation is a little unusual and certainly if you live in Luxor for years at a time and never ever return then you wouldn't be able to take out the policy I've mentioned above. However the "ordinarily residence" status is apparently being scrapped and being replaced with a Statutory Residence test - whatever that entails :ni:

Also, until the FCO travel advice is in place, we do not have travel insurance and therefore are exploring out options of what to do next.

Hope I've not make you feel as confused as I feel. :ni: :urm:

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:21 pm

Zooropa wrote:
Zooropa wrote:
timetraveller wrote:Well, I'm going back to Egypt uninsured because of the FCO advice.

Am I missing something?

Why would you want travel insurance for when you are at "home" ?
Missing something? No. More like misinterpreting something actually!. At no point in any of my posts do I refer to Luxor as 'home'. I refer to those of us, myself included, who have 'homes' in Luxor but there is a difference! I have a home in Luxor but I also have one in England and another in Turkey. Having spent a lot of time in Luxor over the past 14years, I do, in the personal sense have a 'life' there, which the average tourist would not have. But England is my home in the sense that it is the country of my birth and of my citizenship. I am not Egyptian and no matter how long I reside in Egypt I will never be offered Egyptian citizenship. Egypt is not my 'homeland' and will never be such. Like all ex-pats in Egypt, my status is merely that of a long stay visitor in a foreign country. Even should I consider Egypt as my home, the fact is, the Egyptian authorities do not! I do not share the rights of Egyptian nationals and would be charged a great deal more for medical treatment. Which is exactly why I require Travel Insurance. I hope this clarifies things for you-although I suspect that you understood the situation perfectly well already.

And incidentally Zooropa, I do not much appreciate being called 'arrogant and selfish' and do not consider you qualified to judge me thus! Debating an issue is fine, but personal insults? Totally uncalled for in my opinion. I might just as well call you arrogant, judgemental and rude! And with more justification! :xx

And incidentally, the responsible representatives of the British Army have already met with the Luxor Wardens and discussed the details of the evacuation plan, in the unlikely event that they will ever need to implement it. They obviously feel that we are entitled to this service as British Citizens, and their role is apparently solely to evacuate British Nationals from trouble spots abroad.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Bombay » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:04 pm

They will also evacuate nationals from other countries as per arrangements they have.
long term medical plans are available in Egypt with such places as the Luxor Medical Centre.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:38 pm

Bombay wrote:They will also evacuate nationals from other countries as per arrangements they have.
long term medical plans are available in Egypt with such places as the Luxor Medical Centre.
Yes, and they are cost prohibitive and in as far as I am aware, untested. The value of any insurance is only established when a claim is made and paid out!

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:21 pm

Am I missing something?

Why would you want travel insurance for when you are at "home" ?
Missing something? No. More like misinterpreting something actually!. At no point in any of my posts do I refer to Luxor as 'home'. I refer to those of us, myself included, who have 'homes' in Luxor but there is a difference! I have a home in Luxor but I also have one in England and another in Turkey. Having spent a lot of time in Luxor over the past 14years, I do, in the personal sense have a 'life' there, which the average tourist would not have. But England is my home in the sense that it is the country of my birth and of my citizenship. I am not Egyptian and no matter how long I reside in Egypt I will never be offered Egyptian citizenship. Egypt is not my 'homeland' and will never be such. Like all ex-pats in Egypt, my status is merely that of a long stay visitor in a foreign country. Even should I consider Egypt as my home, the fact is, the Egyptian authorities do not! I do not share the rights of Egyptian nationals and would be charged a great deal more for medical treatment. Which is exactly why I require Travel Insurance. I hope this clarifies things for you-although I suspect that you understood the situation perfectly well already.

And incidentally Zooropa, I do not much appreciate being called 'arrogant and selfish' and do not consider you qualified to judge me thus! Debating an issue is fine, but personal insults? Totally uncalled for in my opinion. I might just as well call you arrogant, judgemental and rude! And with more justification! :xx

And incidentally, the responsible representatives of the British Army have already met with the Luxor Wardens and discussed the details of the evacuation plan, in the unlikely event that they will ever need to implement it. They obviously feel that we are entitled to this service as British Citizens, and their role is apparently solely to evacuate British Nationals from trouble spots abroad.

The situation above is completly different, if you are living in an area that becomes unstable, then thats in no way the same as going into an area at a time when you have been given proffessional advice that its not wise to do so.

I think ive been clear on this point, you must stop using reasonable situations and requests to try and liken them to your situation.

They are not the same.

I dont really care what you appreciate and what you dont to be honest and you can call me what you like.

I repeat, in my opinion its selfish and arrogant to expect others to risk their safety because you have decided to ignore proffesional advice and have gone ahead and put yourself in harms way.

In my opinion thats fair comment.

Its hardly considerate is it?

We all have a moral duty to take precautions regarding our own safty to prevent those charged with rescuing us being exposed to unesscessary danger.

I dont believe its morally right to have an attitude that says these people are paid to do this and i pay my taxes so i have no responsibility in the matter.

You do.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:24 pm

Some of us have more than one home.

In my case this means that I have home etc insurance plus a rather expensive health insurance in my European home country and an annual travel insurance because I travel a lot. Though it is only rented, I do have a home in Egypt, it feels like home, I call it home and that is where I choose to wake up most mornings of the year.

When I first came to Luxor and decided to stay, I did have some illusions, but when I leave the house, I consider myself a long term guest, grateful of being tolerated.

I am sure that someone will have a problem with this.

Well if you have more than one home it should not be too difficult to live in the one thats not currently covered by FCO travel advice. :up

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by BENNU » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:56 pm

Zooropa wrote:
Zooropa wrote:
timetraveller wrote:Well, I'm going back to Egypt uninsured because of the FCO advice.

Am I missing something?

Why would you want travel insurance for when you are at "home" ?


Well if you have more than one home it should not be too difficult to live in the one thats not currently covered by FCO travel advice. :up
I know if it is difficult for me and why, but you found it relevant to know, how someone could have a home and a travel insurance.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:20 pm

Am I missing something?

Why would you want travel insurance for when you are at "home" ?


Well if you have more than one home it should not be too difficult to live in the one thats not currently covered by FCO travel advice. :up
I know if it is difficult for me and why, but you found it relevant to know, how someone could have a home and a travel insurance.
True, and fair enough.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:57 pm

Well Zooropa, it's just as well for me that I couldn't give a rat's arse what you think then isn't it? You are judgemental and insulting and you have absolutely no right to be. I have always more than paid my way in life and owe no explanations or apologies to you or anybody else!

And incidentally, I have been in Luxor throughout almost all of the recent troubles, rather than sitting and pontificating about it all from a safe distance. Have you? This, I think, makes me more informed and better placed to assess the 'risk' of being there right now than you are likely to be. So you can stop your moralising. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to lambast others for theirs. And you know nothing about me or my circumstances, so if you really feel compelled to tell others how 'selfish' they are, make sure you know all of the facts first. And even then don't be surprised if they tell you where to stick it!

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:26 pm

Im not judging you, im giving an opinion on anyone who is prepared to put others at risk because they chose to ignore advice.

If you are one of them then i include you.

Its not a judgement its an opinion.

Your accusation of me lambasting you is over emotional nonsense.

All ive done is disagree with you and as youve pointed out im entitled to.

I think something is morally questionable then i will say so.

Not sure why you keep going on about paying your way, thats an irrelevance.

You dont think its selfish or arrogant to potentially put yourself at risk and then expect others to put themselves at risk although you have been warned and you feel the fact that you pay tax entitles you to do that, and thats youre opinion.

I disagree, its not lambasting or insulting its just a difference of opinion.

I didnt say you shouldnt go or that you are not in a worse position to judge, perhaps your the perfect judge.

I just dont think you have a right to expect others to risk themselves when you advised not to travel.

I think thats a reasonable argument to make.

Stop playing the victim card because i happen to disagree with you.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Goddess » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:52 pm

Angela wrote:A few people have discussed what would happen if they ever had to be evacuated from Egypt? Some members mentioned that they've paid their NI and tax and hence entitled to this service which I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with but...is this service actually offered free of charge to British Nationals? In January 2011 the US decide to evacuate their citizens. The chartered a plane, flew them as far as Cyprus where they then had to pay to get themselves from Cyprus back to the US and were also billed for the flight from Egypt to Cyprus (not Easyjet prices either :o )

So would this not be the case for the British as well? That's is down to us to pay the cost of an evacuation should it ever happen? :ni:
The British Gov did the same thing ....a flight was offered for 300 sterling to Jordan ...one way ...from there on you were on your own. I would think in any future events, it would remain the same.
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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:54 pm

In going to Luxor I will not be putting anybody at risk but myself. I have already stated that I will meet any medical expenses I might incur from my own pocket. The FCO and Army feel that any evacuation is extremely unlikely to be necessary and so do I. A judgement I have made from actually BEING THERE before and since Morsi was deposed. Should it be required and offered, I will then decide whether or not to take it. If there is a charge I will happily pay it. If there is not then obviously I won't. Much the same as anybody else in that situation I would have thought. And as to risk to my possible 'rescuers'? They are Army personnel. Apparently they spend their entire time evacuating people. It's their job! I think they are probably more than equal to the task, and evacuating a few ex-pats from Luxor would probably be a walk in the park for them. And of course, this service is paid for by the British Tax Payer, whether you choose to attach any significance to that fact or not.

My response to you is not over emotional. I posted on a thread which I thought was a reasonable debate. It was both you and ST who started using insulting and EMOTIVE terms such as 'arrogant' and 'selfish'. If you cannot present a reasoned argument without resorting to personal insults then perhaps you would be better to keep your own counsel.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:06 pm

Im not the most literate person in the world and would be happy to be coached on alternative less emotive words to arrogant and selfish, but it would not change my point of view.

In any case i did not directly say you were, i was speaking hypothetically.

The debate was not about Luxor exclusively but you chose to raise it as an example.

You have now stated or suggested that as you have been there before and since and so are in a position to judge.

Better than the FCO?
For the record i was there when it all started this time, i dont think that makes me able to judge any better than anyone else.

As for keeping my own council, ive not suggested you shouldnt speak your mind so dont suggest the same of me.

Im tempted to say, how did you put it? Oh yes,

"Stick it"

But i wont, because that is being rude!

Pot, kettle etc.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by BENNU » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:18 pm

Goddess wrote:
Angela wrote:A few people have discussed what would happen if they ever had to be evacuated from Egypt? Some members mentioned that they've paid their NI and tax and hence entitled to this service which I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with but...is this service actually offered free of charge to British Nationals? In January 2011 the US decide to evacuate their citizens. The chartered a plane, flew them as far as Cyprus where they then had to pay to get themselves from Cyprus back to the US and were also billed for the flight from Egypt to Cyprus (not Easyjet prices either :o )

So would this not be the case for the British as well? That's is down to us to pay the cost of an evacuation should it ever happen? :ni:
The British Gov did the same thing ....a flight was offered for 300 sterling to Jordan ...one way ...from there on you were on your own. I would think in any future events, it would remain the same.
That is how I remembered it, but this discussion made me doubt. I would not expect anyone to put themselves at risk because I have decided to go to Egypt, and I have wondered how travelling can be unfair to authorities.

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