Is it Fair?

Get the best advice about your holiday in Luxor.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by A-Four » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:54 pm

There trully is so much that travel insurance hide behind, and in most cases claim money for you, that YOU automatically claim, as a right,......the Warsaw Convention on flight travel and loss of life or/and luggage. Luggage insurance is paid out by the kilo and not value, unless you take out a special insurance,......it is a minefield and a total con, like most if not all insurance, especially travel and property insurance.



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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:42 pm

Alistair1967 wrote:What happens if you have valid insurance when you travel but the advice changes whilst you are actually on holiday? Will a claim still be honoured?

From what ive heard yes, when I was away that's exactly what happened, the current troubles started and I was advised that I was still covered but to stay away from any trouble, whether that was just some advice from the insurance company or a condition of continuing cover I didn't ask!

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Bombay » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:21 pm

The small print has always been there and Insurances do pay out otherwise places like the Luxor Medical Centre would not be taking over a nearby hotel to expand.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Grandad » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:45 pm

I am prompted to ask an associated question. Do expats living in Egypt have personal insurance and is that cover affected by the information from the FCO???
Grandad :gg:

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by A-Four » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:07 pm

Grandad wrote:I am prompted to ask an associated question. Do expats living in Egypt have personal insurance and is that cover affected by the information from the FCO???
A realy good question here Grandad,.......lets hope they are going to give a true answer.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Jane Akshar » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:38 pm

Nope don't have any insurance never bothered. You see I have diabetes and they exclude pre existing conditions. Practically everything you get could be considered by an insurance company as caused by diabetes and therefore excluded. You know what they are like. I used to pay £216 a month for private health insurance for the family in the UK before I came to Egypt.

So far I have had 3 medical problems needing a stay in a hospital in Cairo, very satisfied with the treatment and the cost. I have had kidney stones twice, treated by ultrasonics and an ovarian cyst that resulted in a hysterectomy. that one was the most expensive and cost approx £2,000 including 5 day hospital stay in a private room with a relative couch, operation, surgeon, taxis, hotels, flights etc etc etc.

That is in 10 years and I reckon my insurance premiums would have been around £26,000 and I would have had to get them to agree to the kidney stones not being caused by diabetes(hassle) so I am def ahead.
Jane Akshar - mad about egyptology -sane otherwise ....... I think

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by A-Four » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:40 pm

Jane here above, gives what I call a true answer.

I, myself also have never taken out a policy. When young, I thought that i was healthy, and now later in life, I find out about all the cons, these people hide behind when it means they have to pay out big. This 'Peace of mind' nonesense fails once you read the small and NO print, as I call it.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:03 pm

Well, I'm going back to Egypt uninsured because of the FCO advice. Does it worry me? Well, yes, actually it does. Like most people past the first flush of youth I have some health issues which could flare up and require treatment. But that doesn't worry me unduly-what worries me is the cost of repatriating my remains should I die abroad- I wouldn't want my family to have to bear that expense, even if they used my funds. Whereas they probably wouldn't be happy for me to be weighted down and chucked in the Nile!

But at the end of the day one has to decide whether one needs &/or wants to go enough to take the risk. It's a personal choice really. Why one should question whether it's fair to anybody outside one's personal circle I don't really know. And even if I should need to be evacuated by the Government? Well, we've all paid our tax and NI for all of our working lives haven't we? I reckon I'll still be well in credit so far, having put more into the pot than I've taken out! :)

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:52 pm

timetraveller wrote:Well, I'm going back to Egypt uninsured because of the FCO advice. Does it worry me? Well, yes, actually it does. Like most people past the first flush of youth I have some health issues which could flare up and require treatment. But that doesn't worry me unduly-what worries me is the cost of repatriating my remains should I die abroad- I wouldn't want my family to have to bear that expense, even if they used my funds. Whereas they probably wouldn't be happy for me to be weighted down and chucked in the Nile!

But at the end of the day one has to decide whether one needs &/or wants to go enough to take the risk. It's a personal choice really. Why one should question whether it's fair to anybody outside one's personal circle I don't really know. And even if I should need to be evacuated by the Government? Well, we've all paid our tax and NI for all of our working lives haven't we? I reckon I'll still be well in credit so far, having put more into the pot than I've taken out! :)

I can see your point re taxes etc and if you were stranded on a mountain top and needed airlifting off or in a burning building and needed a fireman to rescue you, well, yes its only fair that your taxes should cover such things.

But, do not forget, the fireman and the air rescue service personnel pay their taxes as well.

So I must ask, does paying your taxes give you the right to expect and have them compelled to risk their lives on the strength of it?

From my point of view and if I were either one of them I would say yes, after all no one forced them to do the job.

But, if you had played fast and loose with fire safety or gone up the mountain in conditions which the authorities said were not safe then I would very much say no.

No, no, no.

And for me, its the same with travelling against FCO advice.

Fine if you want to put yourself potentially in harms way its your right to decide to do that but you don't have the right to put other people who are compelled to come to your aid under the same dangers.

In all such conditions, travelling, going up the mountain etc when its deemed not as safe as usual people should be made to sign waivers releasing people from the burdon of having to put themselves at the same risk.

Taxes or no raxes.

In my opinion.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:09 pm

But, do not forget, the fireman and the air rescue service personnel pay their taxes as well.

So I must ask, does paying your taxes give you the right to expect and have them compelled to risk their lives on the strength of it?
The answer here re: search and rescue type rescuers is the Insurers will argue that if the guys are sitting in the office they pay out to them in wages and benefits i.e. $100. When they're called out the equipment, overtime, use of gears and supplies etc amounts to a far great amount. And if one of the fellows dies in the process of saving you then HIS insurance kicks in and the Company has to pay out all his benefits.

I don't have precise facts and figures but I think this is the jist of the rationale.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Scottishtourist » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:15 pm

I personally am not willing to travel without insurance to Luxor or any other place that the FCO is advising against.
I think it would be sheer folly to do so.
I'm fit,healthy,no pre-existing medical conditions,etc...but I would still feel much safer with some form of insurance.
It would be peace of mind for me.. and would maybe go some way to easing consequences of the "what if"scenario.
I make no bones about the fact that I totally disagree with British ex-pats coming "back home"for a visit without any form of travel/medical insurance.As I've said before,past payments of NI and tax in UK is not a guarantee nor a right to treatment here.
So..it would be hypocritical of me to even attempt to travel to Luxor without it myself.
It really surprises me that there are some who are so passionate about visiting and ignoring FCO advice,and who even admit that they will do so despite health issues etc.
Just too risky in my opinion.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:09 pm

It amazes me that a lot of people are preoccupied with their own well being re health insurance and most don't seem to be bothered about the main suggestion in the question I asked which was putting others at risk because they themselves have decided to risk it!

Wow....

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:19 pm

Zooropa, Funnily enough I sometimes watch a daytime programme about the Helimed Rescue Services. They provide emergency treatment and transport people to Hospital by Helicopter when it is too difficult or urgent to travel by road. The majority of these people have met with serious accidents whilst engaged in dangerous sports such as Rock Climbing, Paragliding, Potholing etc, often without the necessary safety equipment or skills. It costs circa £1000 an hour to undertake those rescues. Are the beneficiaries charged for the service or even reprimanded for their foolhardiness? No, they are not. It is one of the benefits of living in the UK. And those of us who are, or who have previously been employed pay for it with every paycheck. And subsidise those who never work.

So, yes...I think it is fair that emergency assistance is provided when required.But if I travel uninsured, I will fully expect to pay for any medical expenses myself. However, should the British Army ever need to implement their evacuation plan whilst I am in Luxor, I would accept their assistance with gratitude, but consider it my right!

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by BENNU » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:28 pm

Zooropa wrote:It amazes me that a lot of people are preoccupied with their own well being re health insurance and most don't seem to be bothered about the main suggestion in the question I asked which was putting others at risk because they themselves have decided to risk it!

Wow....
This is your original post: Is it fair

To travel against your countries advice?

Discuss.....

- You could have been a little more clear when inviting to a discussion.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Scottishtourist » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:30 pm

I reckon they risk it because they are basically selfish Z!
If we're talking "Mountain Rescue"teams here..a helluva lot of them are volunteers.Especially in the Scottish Mountains.
They are not "Professionals."They are locals who know the terrain through experience.
They aid and assist the "professionals",and are paid a minimal retainer fee.
Is their life worth that?
No,no,no.
Travel with insurance...or accept the (financial)consequences.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:45 pm

Easy to write people off as selfish when you are talking as a tourist ST! But remember, for some of us, our lives are based in Luxor, our homes, partners and friends. Those of us have things we want and need to go back for. We're not just taking a 'holiday' against FCO advice-we're going back to our lives. Insured or not. Can you not understand that?

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:02 am

I can understand that perfectly TT.
But..is it totally imperative that you travel at this moment?
If you have "loved"ones there...would they really insist you come back at this moment in time,and at your own personal risk?
You should be considering yourself,the risks,your own health issues.
It's all very well being philanthropic...but your own well-being should be your first priority.
After all,if you can't travel at this time due to the obvious restrictions...then hopefully you'll be fit,well and insured to travel at a later date.
Better to put yourself first for the moment...and reap the rewards at a later date.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by timetraveller » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:24 am

ST, I've only taken a short break in the UK. I was in Luxor until recently and although it has been a tense and stressful time I don't actually consider it to be particularly unsafe. And if it is I stay out of harms way, as anybody with a modicum of common sense would do. We all make difficult choices in difficult times. What isn't 'fair' I think is to be so judgemental. We all have different circumstances to factor into our decisions as to whether to travel or not. Nobody should presume to judge for anybody else. :)

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by dsaxelby » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:32 am

I lived on the North Peckham Estate doctors, milkman, police rarely ventured in, eventually they knocked it to the ground and rebuilt houses, living in a place that is considered dangerous probably is to those that do not live there. I was in Luxor beginning of Ramadan saw and heard a few demonstrations, played by the rules and kept safe. Listened to people took advice and found an excellent excuse to stay at my favourite hotel :D

Saying that coming back from Gay Pride in Brighton on the train with my children I was warned by a bystander something was going to kick off and suggested we move carriage, we got off the train next stop. Unfortunately what was going to kick off happened at the station, again we were advised to move along, so my little one did not witness anything. My daughters said at least they warned us :o me felt like a strange in my own country not being able to read the signs, no longer a Londoner.
It is what it is.

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Re: Is it Fair?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:13 am

timetraveller wrote:Zooropa, Funnily enough I sometimes watch a daytime programme about the Helimed Rescue Services. They provide emergency treatment and transport people to Hospital by Helicopter when it is too difficult or urgent to travel by road. The majority of these people have met with serious accidents whilst engaged in dangerous sports such as Rock Climbing, Paragliding, Potholing etc, often without the necessary safety equipment or skills. It costs circa £1000 an hour to undertake those rescues. Are the beneficiaries charged for the service or even reprimanded for their foolhardiness? No, they are not. It is one of the benefits of living in the UK. And those of us who are, or who have previously been employed pay for it with every paycheck. And subsidise those who never work.

So, yes...I think it is fair that emergency assistance is provided when required.But if I travel uninsured, I will fully expect to pay for any medical expenses myself. However, should the British Army ever need to implement their evacuation plan whilst I am in Luxor, I would accept their assistance with gratitude, but consider it my right!
You seem to have not noticed or chose to ignore the fact that I did draw a distinction between circumstances.

Of course there is risk in many things we do and im not suggesting that aid should not be provided.

But like most things there is a tipping point and a line has to be drawn.

Fair enough if climbing mountains is your bag then go for it safe in the knowledge you will be assisted if you get into to trouble, I never said I disagreed with that.

However, the line here is when you are told not to climb today, this week or whatever because for whatever reason there is an increased risk.

That's when you have no right to expect to be rescued if it puts other people in danger. You have decided not to follow the alert and I couldn't give a monkeys how much tax you pay, in my opinion under those circumstances you have no damned rights at all when it comes to expecting to be rescued!

And to expect that right in that situation is arrogant and selfish.

Im not sure what is relevant about you asking if people who have gone on a mountain ill equipped for said pursuit are charged or reprimanded.

Whether they are or not is not the point.

Its whether they should be, and in my own opinion under the circumstances you suggest they should not be.

And they should be made to pay the cost of rescue in full.

Perhaps next time they can spend the money it costs on some brains and a sense of consideration for other people.

Sailing, rock climbing and travelling are all pursuits that carry an element of risk, that's accepted, if we didn't do anything that had risk we wouldn't do anything and we would stay in bed all day, I accept that.

But if the coast guard (expert in the field of sea faring) says don't get in a boat today because there is an increased risk or a mountain rescue unit (experts in climbing) says the weather makes it more dangerous today so don't climb or the FCO (experts about foreign countries) says there is an increased risk and people who think they know better choose to ignore that advice then you should be on your own.

You were warned, your fault your issue, your call.

And you are right, one of the benefits of living in the UK is to be rescued whatever the circumstances.

That does not mean its a right you should always have though does it?

In my opinion.
Last edited by Zooropa on Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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