Monuments closed......sign of things to come?

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Post by Arthur » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:56 pm

I agree, Morgita, sexual and domestic violence is underreported everywhere. And I agree that in Muslim countries where a women's 'honour' belongs to her family then the difficulties in reporting are higher. But you could equally argue, as the discussion on the slapping of a woman by a taxi driver reported elsewhere testifies, families are more likely to take the law into their own hands to defend a woman's honour than to rely on the criminal justice system. That surely has a strong deterrent effect even if it isn't to western tastes.

I see no evidence demonstrating that muslim men are any more likely to be rapists than men of any other or no faith.

Jewel was, sensationally as ever, using the Lara Logan incident to demonise Muslims, when there is ample historical evidence of the security forces using sexual violence against women in Egypt to curb dissent. She is free to interpret the incident as the actions of mad islamists, as I am to see it as the actions of a brutal and morally bankrupt regime.



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Post by Morgita » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:54 pm

And truth to tell, Arthur, neither of you know. You each cling to your interpretation born from your preconceptions. I expect no less from Jewel but you are usually a little less "fundamental" in your attitudes. Defeat her with sweet reason and cogent argument. Don't fall back on meaningless ststistics.

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Post by Arthur » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:00 pm

Morgita wrote:Defeat her with sweet reason and cogent argument. Don't fall back on meaningless ststistics.
OK.

The U.S. State Department has joined international human rights groups in describing a culture of torture within Egyptian's security agencies, issuing a 2009 report in which it itemized alleged abuses ranging from electroshock to sodomy and said "officials often operated with impunity."

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/egypts-to ... d=12821831

Sexual assaults have been surfacing for a while, often with a background of police ineptitude or compliance. In 2005, hundreds of Egyptians staged an angry protest against the sexual harassment and assault of female activists and reporters by suspected government supporters. The women said police and security forces stood by, some shouting orders during the assaults.
http://www.monaeltahawy.com/blog/?p=331

Supporters of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak attacked journalists on Cairo streets on Wednesday, the Committee to Protect Journalists said, calling the incidents an effort at "blanket censorship."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/ ... 6020110203

"Starting yesterday we saw a surge phase in attacks against journalists," said Mohamed Abdel Dayem, the Committee to Protect Journalists' Middle East and North Africa programme co-ordinator. "This is like a return to the first phase, before the censorship, but far more violent and universal. They are now targeting anybody with a camera, notepad, anybody interviewing people – anyone will get violently attacked, anyone they could get their hands on. If you're a journalist in Egypt at this late stage in the game, they don't care if you're from Mars – they're going to come after you."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/fe ... t-protests

When army officers violently cleared Tahrir Square on March 9, 17 women were detained, beaten, prodded with electric shock batons, subjected to strip searches, forced to submit to ‘virginity tests’ and threatened with prostitution charges.
http://blog.amnestyusa.org/women/ending ... -in-egypt/

"I took a big risk for my reputation to say what I reluctantly have to say, to protect any girl or woman who may go through what I had to, and to protect any woman who may trust a police van"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10882670

Thousands of Men and No Groping! Egypt's protests were a safe space for women. Until things turned violent.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... oping.html

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Post by jewel » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:07 pm

Statistics .....aah, how does the saying go?

The facts are that there is a correlation between Muslim immigration and the incidence of rape in a country, if you look at europe for example. This is not anti Muslim just facts.


http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/201 ... migration/

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/201 ... dish-girl/

One reason for the high number of rapes by Muslims, Cited by a professor of anthropology at Oslo university was that in their native countries "rape is
scarcely punished," since Muslims "believe that it is women who are responsible for rape."

I think that applies in most Arab countries where if rape does happen(and it does frequently, as well as homosexuality and bestiality) it is never reported and even if it is it is never the man at fault. So if you imagine any statistics are in fact meaningless.

Also when you look at the consumption of pornography Muslim countries are high in Rape sex after animal sex.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statis ... rnography)


Also morgita, you are correct to highlight the underreporting of rape or physical assault by women, I have found this to be true, and part of my work involved dealing with women at the receiving end of such abuse so I do have some "inside" knowledge of this experientially.
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Post by TonyC » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:43 pm

Interesting how Jewel pours scorn on the use of statistics by somebody else ... and in the same post supplies us with a link to a whole page of statistics to back up her argument!

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Post by jewel » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:47 pm

Aah Tonyc but they are wiki inks! ;)
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Post by Brian Yare » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:57 pm

Jewel can rarely be accused of spin because she rarely adds her own views, just quoting others. :-\

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Post by Brian Yare » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:01 pm

Arthur

You quote some statistics, but only of reported rapes. How many rapes in Moslim states are reported, and how many in so-called free states?

I suspect tht rape by a husband is very unlikely to be reported in a Moslim state, and that other information is also suppressed. This is not to suggest that non-Moslim states experience the same skew on statistics.

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Post by jewel » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:53 pm

My view is that one day soon the monuments in Egypt will go the same way as the Bamiyan buddhas of Afghanistan, and look what a hell hole that place is now. No other views or statistics necessary, just an eventuality that's all. :)
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Post by Arthur » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:48 am

jewel wrote:Statistics .....aah, how does the saying go?

The facts are that there is a correlation between Muslim immigration and the incidence of rape in a country, if you look at europe for example. This is not anti Muslim just facts.
http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/201 ... migration/
Barenakedislam not anti-muslim????...Just facts???? Your link says: "Back in May it was reported that every rape assault in the city of Oslo in the last five years had been committed by a person with a “non-Western” background – a Norwegian euphemism for Muslim." The Norwegian police says that 20.9% of convicted rapists - where data is known - are of Middle East origin, 47.3% were European. http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/ ... -much.html
So not just facts at all ... just bare-naked islamophobia.
jewel wrote:Muslims believe that it is women who are responsible for rape"
But it's your mad professor who blames women: "Dagbladet, quoted Unni Wikan, a female professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo as saying that "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative.". http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/08/first ... d-war.html
jewel wrote:I think that applies in most Arab countries where if rape does happen... it is never reported and even if it is it is never the man at fault.

Apart from the three men beheaded in Jeddah today for rape...
http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article533708.ece
jewel wrote: Also when you look at the consumption of pornography Muslim countries are high in Rape sex after animal sex.
And “sex” and “porn” are the in the top 5 web searches for children under the age of 18 according to Norton. http://onlinefamilyinfo.norton.com/arti ... s_2009.php That doesn't mean that all children are rapists... The top 5 google searches in Egypt were all rather vanilla... games, facebook, images, Egypt, movies... http://www.google.com/insights/search/#geo=EG&cmpt=geo

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Post by Arthur » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:55 am

jewel wrote:one day soon the monuments in Egypt will go the same way as the Bamiyan buddhas of Afghanistan
Oh, are the Taliban standing in the elections on 28th?

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Post by Brian Yare » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:16 pm

Arthur

Will there be elections on 28th? I hear from a contact in Cairo that they will be delayed, but don't know what to believe on that.

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Post by DJKeefy » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:44 am

Brian Yare wrote:Arthur

Will there be elections on 28th? I hear from a contact in Cairo that they will be delayed, but don't know what to believe on that.
You might get a more exact and trustful answer from your limousine driver, he will know for sure. :lol:
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Post by jewel » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:52 am

This was informative about the supposed forthcoming elections.




I fear that the coming round of parliamentary elections will be both the first and final round of elections.

No one wants a postponement of the elections, such a delay would be a national crime. But the elections are severely vulnerable to a cancellation, and with it, the cancellation of national demands, should this opening round of elections be mired in blood.

Every previous election has witnessed injuries and deaths, with not a single one passing without bloodshed. But this was in the framework of controlled elections – under the control of the state, its security apparatus and systematic fraud, and in the presence of judicial supervision unable to protect against killings. Despite this, the situation we find ourselves in now regarding the coming elections is even more dangerous and more problematic!

We’re talking about a horrendous failure on the part of both the military council and the government in the restoration of security on the streets of Egypt. Furthermore, as chaos escalates, disorder increases and vigilantism spreads, daily violence will become the new state of normalcy, and enough signs will be present – cut roadways, raids, kidnappings, robbery, revenge between families – to know that all of Egypt is affected, with no difference between upper and lower Egypt, or the capital from the provinces.


This from ibrahim eissa An Egyptian journalist

http://www.theegyptreport.com/2011/11/1 ... ward-role/


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/no ... sfeed=true

Add to that various clashes (usually because of family vendettas and fights over land) in Upper Egypt, and this paints the impression of a country where there is little policing and the state's ability to control violence is severely hindered. Some of this violence occurred before, but was repressed by the authorities and often did not make it to the media. And some may be related to heightened tensions during the electoral period. But much if it also has to do with the semi-collapse of the police with few attempts by the transitional government to set things right and begin the process of building a new police force.

I'm struck by how, in conversations with various people from the man on the street to politicians, there remains much doubt about whether the elections should be held in such a potentially explosive climate. The media is of course exaggerating this line — Rose al-Youssef, a major weekly magazine, has on its cover the headline "the parliament of blood" with a picture of a bloodied ballot box this week. Past elections, after all, have also been violent.

But there is a much greater sense of the unknown about the upcoming elections, from the question of violence to how various parties will perform to whether the elections will be procedurally correct (there is a high risk that lack of preparation for the number of voters will mean not everyone will get to vote, polling stations will run out of material or otherwise be unable to process all voters). And then there is the still largely unasked question: what happens if, after the first round, the results and/or the tensions prompt a panicking military to cancel the poll? It does not seem likely now, but a lack of preparation makes anything possible. An already turbulent Egypt is entering a period of increased turbulence: fasten your seatbelts.
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Post by Kevininabydos » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:59 am

jewel wrote:This was informative about the supposed forthcoming elections.




I fear that the coming round of parliamentary elections will be both the first and final round of elections.

No one wants a postponement of the elections, such a delay would be a national crime. But the elections are severely vulnerable to a cancellation, and with it, the cancellation of national demands, should this opening round of elections be mired in blood.

Every previous election has witnessed injuries and deaths, with not a single one passing without bloodshed. But this was in the framework of controlled elections – under the control of the state, its security apparatus and systematic fraud, and in the presence of judicial supervision unable to protect against killings. Despite this, the situation we find ourselves in now regarding the coming elections is even more dangerous and more problematic!

We’re talking about a horrendous failure on the part of both the military council and the government in the restoration of security on the streets of Egypt. Furthermore, as chaos escalates, disorder increases and vigilantism spreads, daily violence will become the new state of normalcy, and enough signs will be present – cut roadways, raids, kidnappings, robbery, revenge between families – to know that all of Egypt is affected, with no difference between upper and lower Egypt, or the capital from the provinces.


This from ibrahim eissa An Egyptian journalist

http://www.theegyptreport.com/2011/11/1 ... ward-role/


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/no ... sfeed=true

Add to that various clashes (usually because of family vendettas and fights over land) in Upper Egypt, and this paints the impression of a country where there is little policing and the state's ability to control violence is severely hindered. Some of this violence occurred before, but was repressed by the authorities and often did not make it to the media. And some may be related to heightened tensions during the electoral period. But much if it also has to do with the semi-collapse of the police with few attempts by the transitional government to set things right and begin the process of building a new police force.

I'm struck by how, in conversations with various people from the man on the street to politicians, there remains much doubt about whether the elections should be held in such a potentially explosive climate. The media is of course exaggerating this line — Rose al-Youssef, a major weekly magazine, has on its cover the headline "the parliament of blood" with a picture of a bloodied ballot box this week. Past elections, after all, have also been violent.

But there is a much greater sense of the unknown about the upcoming elections, from the question of violence to how various parties will perform to whether the elections will be procedurally correct (there is a high risk that lack of preparation for the number of voters will mean not everyone will get to vote, polling stations will run out of material or otherwise be unable to process all voters). And then there is the still largely unasked question: what happens if, after the first round, the results and/or the tensions prompt a panicking military to cancel the poll? It does not seem likely now, but a lack of preparation makes anything possible. An already turbulent Egypt is entering a period of increased turbulence: fasten your seatbelts.
This echos what a lot have been saying on the forum for months with regard the state of the policing of Egypt but doesn't say a lot about the elections. Until they happen or they don't happen everything written about them is only conjecture, however well informed.
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Post by Brian Yare » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:55 pm

What is the state of readiness for elections in 11 days time?

Do you have an electoral register, candidates, polling stations, voting cards, tellers, and whatever else is necessary for an election in a civilized country?

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Post by Kevininabydos » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:40 am

Brian Yare wrote:in a civilized country?
and just what is that supposed to mean?
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Post by LivinginLuxor » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:58 am

Are you implying that Egypt is not a civilised country? If so, please give some examples of how the UK is more civilised, given what the so-called 'austerity program' is going to do to the poor, the disabled and the unemployed.
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Post by TonyC » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:09 am

Brian Yare wrote:Do you have an electoral register, candidates, polling stations, voting cards, tellers, and whatever else is necessary for an election in a civilized country?
"Do you have..."? No, we don't, but Egypt has ID cards which constitute an electoral register; stacks of candidates (party nominees and independents) have registered (so many the authorities extended the deadline); schools will be polling stations (as they were in the interim referendum vote); voting cards – ID cards again; tellers – the authorities have probably thought of that one although they haven't announced who they will be to the forum; thumbs will undoubtedly be inked (not very "civilised", I know). Everything proceeding apace.

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Post by Goddess » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:24 am

and apparently the uniforms for the officials in charge of the polling stations and the dippy finger ink have already arrived in the country. What more could we need??!!
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